Tradition Breakers Episode 7 with Jessica Chun Williams

Have you ever thought to yourself, 'It’s too late to write that book,' 'I’m too old to change careers,' or 'Social media is a young person’s thing?' If you’ve ever felt these limiting beliefs hold you back from pursuing your dreams or exploring your curiosities, then you’re going to love this week’s episode. I’m interviewing my friend, Jessica Chun Williams, who’ll demonstrate that there’s no age limit when following your dreams and breaking from tradition.

Jessica is a writer, course creator, and HR consultant with a Master’s in Communication Management from USC. She recently authored a cookbook aimed at people who didn’t grow up with the typical Thanksgiving turkey dinner—immigrants, children of immigrants, and anyone unfamiliar with this American culinary tradition. Her recipes provide a way to connect with this classic holiday meal and are perfect for the season. And Jessica’s not stopping there; she’s currently working on a memoir about her family’s immigrant journey from Qing Dynasty China to the Kingdom of Hawai’i, embracing her heritage and sharing insights on what it means to blend cultures and traditions in a meaningful way.

Jessica is also actively managing her HR consulting practice, proving that it’s never too late to follow your interests while honoring your responsibilities. Her story is a reminder that forging your path doesn’t need to follow a set timeline or approach; you can do it in your own way and at your own pace. 

I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did!

Links:

Schedule a free marketing consultation with Tasty Directives.

Follow Tradition Breakers on Instagram.

Follow Mary Vallarta on Instagram. 

Purchase Jessica's cookbook, Turkey Savvy. 

Follow Jessica on Instagram

Transcript

Mary (00:00:00):

Have you ever thought to yourself, it's too late to write that book, or I'm too old to change careers? If you've ever told yourself this, then you're going to love this week's episode. I'm interviewing my friend Jessica Chun Williams, who's going to demonstrate that there's no age limit when it comes to following your dreams and breaking from tradition. Hi, this is Mary and welcome back to Tradition Breakers. This is a podcast that shares remarkable, amazing, inspiring stories from API individuals who chose to break from tradition to follow their own unique path, whether that's in the creative, spiritual, or entrepreneurial space. Now, this week I'm interviewing Jessica Chun Williams. She is a writer, course creator and HR consultant with a master's in Communication Management from USC. She recently authored a cookbook aimed at people who didn't grow up with a typical Thanksgiving Turkey dinner. Basically immigrants or children of immigrants and anyone unfamiliar with this American culinary tradition.

(00:01:20):

So her recipes provide a way to connect with this classic holiday meal. And it's also really great timing because it's almost Thanksgiving. Can't believe we're almost God towards the end of the year. But anyway, back to Jessica. She's also currently working on a memoir about her family's immigrant journey from the Qing Dynasty in China to the kingdom of Hawaii, embracing her heritage and sharing insights on what it means to blend cultures and traditions in a meaningful way. She's also actively managing her HR consultant practice, proving that it's never too late to follow your interests while honoring your responsibilities. Her stories of reminder that forging your path doesn't need to follow a set timeline or approach because you can do it in your own way and at your own pace. Taking a chance on yourself is for anyone willing to pursue what truly lights them up. So in this episode, we explore Jessica's inspiring projects and the inner and outer work that led her to pursue her passions on her terms. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

(00:02:45):

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Jessica (00:04:01):

Same here. Thank you for inviting me to be part of the conversation of being a tradition breaker. What that means,

Mary (00:04:08):

Yay. Well, let's just go right into it. So how I see you as a tradition breaker is a few things, right? When we first met, I learned that you made a very conscious choice to parent your child differently. And when I say that, I'm talking about different from the traditional way that Asian parents parent their children, which is usually to treat educational excellence as the most important measure of a child's success. I also saw and observed that you're following your passion and curiosity in your own way. And to me that means a lot because oftentimes in our society right now, we revere youth a lot, and people might have this conception that you have to do that when you're still young, whatever that means. And you're showing that you don't have to be young to follow your passions and your curiosities. You can do it at any age. And then I also learned that you're working on a memoir about your family's immigration journey from China to Hawaii. So those are all the different ways that I see you as a tradition breaker specifically for that purpose. Sharing your family's personal journey isn't really like, I don't know, encouraged in a lot of Asian households. You are encouraged to keep familial things to yourself. So I see you as a tradition breaker. How do you see yourself as a tradition breaker?

Jessica (00:06:03):

Now, first I wanted to comment as well. I was so excited to come on the podcast first as an Asian American, because as we've talked about, it's something that is kind of relatively new, and you talked about how we tend to keep to ourselves to some extent. So sharing is not always natural. And then also as a woman, hearing our stories and the types of careers and risks we've taken. And then finally, I think as someone who has had a lengthy career, I really feel like it's great to hear the voices of people that have experienced. In fact, at one time I had thought about creating this blog post series asking different senior women, especially women of color, what were some of their lessons learned? So I feel like I'm excited to be able to share some of those things. So in terms of me being a tradition breaker, well, initially I think I probably came across as the good eldest daughter.

(00:07:10):

I did all the things. I had the good grades. I went to college. I went to grad school, I got a job. I hit those milestones that were expected. So that actually ended up kind of buying me a lot of goodwill because I was seen, again as participating and as I think we'll probably talk about later in what we have in our Asian collectivist culture, then following rules and sticking with the program that's really valued. So I did some of those things, but looking back, I can see that I actually started to diverge a bit even as a teenager.

Jessica (00:07:47):

And some of those were the expected things, like a tire fashion. So obviously my tire was not to, my parents liking my skirts were too short, my pants were too tight. Right now we'd say the opposite. People's pants are too loose, they're falling off. So there's that. But then there were other things that only now I realize were cultural. For example, growing up in Hawaii, obviously the beach is a big thing. It is here. I loved going outdoors, getting a tan, still do. And so that's something that in Chinese culture is traditionally frowned upon because that means you're low class on a labor or something. But again, being in Hawaii, I think some of those rules were relaxed. So that wasn't something my parents gave me a lot of flack for anything.

(00:08:36):

But there were things I started to hide because I knew they were not acceptable. And I mean probably this seems kind of laughable right now, but I got extra set of piercings aside from the approved ones, or I dyed a big purple streak in my hair, but it was underneath. So if I went out clubbing and I put my hair up or something, and even clubbing, well, my parents didn't really know about that either. So again, I started to diverge a bit, but it was kind of innocent things or things that could be remedied. My hair would grow out or something like that. But then later on when for example, my choice of a non-agent spouse, that's not really something you can hide. And then my parenting choices and things like that. So that's when I'd already started getting this sort of low level of criticism.

(00:09:26):

You're going to see that's actually a theme I started thinking about after being invited to the podcast. And how do you deal with that? How do you stick up for yourself and defend your own choices? So anyhow, I did manage to do that one my methods. And again, here's another thing, counseling. I was actually so upset that two of my family members actually flat out told me not to marry my non-Asian spouse that I was seeing a counselor. And again, not a thing that a lot of Asians want to do or want to admit to. And this person who was actually Jewish and had married someone of maybe a Christian or something, said, do you want to marry someone your parents approve of and then wake up in 20 years maybe or longer whenever your parents are not there and you're married to the person that you picked because your parents approved of them, is that what you want? So I mean, that was part of my journey too, is how you cope with some of the very strong traditions and criticism in our community. And when you want to go against them, how do you find a way to do that? And then that came out really strongly in parenting.

Mary (00:10:43):

Yeah, I think it's so valuable to just look back in your life and see like, oh, how did I diverge? How did I challenge what was expected of me? Not because for the sake of challenging, but because there was just something else that you wanted to follow. So I could totally relate with all those things. Once I got a second piercing that I could easily just cover with my hair, eventually my mom found out and I was in trouble. But it starts with those little acts of fighting for yourself and advocating for yourself. Yes, for self-expression,

Jessica (00:11:24):

A hundred percent. Oh my gosh, I'm glad I'm not the only one. And why should we have to hide that? Why is that something as innocent as just another set of piercings? Right,

Mary (00:11:37):

Exactly. So you and your husband chose to raise your child differently parenting. Why did you decide to move away from that knowing? Or maybe you didn't, but usually when you do veer off of the traditional way of parenting that your family has done for many, many years, you'll experience criticism. What made you want to do that knowing that that would happen?

Jessica (00:12:09):

This was such a great question, and I've actually have been thinking about that. Why? Because I had taken a writing class from another fellow Asian American, that wasn't the reason why, but my essay was about parenting and the choices I made. So I've been thinking a lot about this question about why did I do it? And they really have landed on three different things. One is that the way I was raised was more of what is called that tiger parenting. And they think when I was growing up, there wasn't a name for it. And now there's been a lot of articles and well, a lot more anyway, and studies actually of the practice of tiger parenting. It's very strict. It's actually kind of punitive and painful and painful, both for the child and the parent. It takes a lot of fortitude.

(00:13:07):

I mean, just to give some examples that I had to pull out as part of my essay, my own mother took my very small LP collection of these records that I collected, and she was so worried about my listening to this devil's music or whatever she thought it was. She literally physically walked them and put them in the trash can. And my friends were just, what? And I rescued one of the covers. I didn't think to question her right to do that. And there are lots of things like that. My own fellow tiger moms my age, some of them had the fortitude to take away video games or their son's favorite thing like Pokemon or whatever for an entire year, literally turning a deaf ear to any ENT treaties. And I just didn't have it in me to do a lot of these things. I mean, it's not that we didn't implement discipline, but the degree it takes a lot of strength. So myself as a person. And the second thing is I think it really depends on the child.

Jessica  (00:14:23):

Even the battle hym of the Tiger mother about one novel that really kind of broke open the discussion. She had two different children and one responded fairly well to that and the other one. So again, my child was responsive to other types of parenting practices. So I think that was a factor. And then the third thing was just kind of thinking about the results. And actually in the worst case scenarios, some people felt that they were really harmed. I mean, this is documented in articles or poems and things. They're really harmed by these punitive measures and that it's not always, doesn't always feel very loving and so forth. Now, I probably didn't get to that degree, and most of us just kind of overcame whatever and became the person we wanted. However, there was a lot to endure and I just didn't want that for my child.

(00:15:16):

And the other thing was I feel like sometimes there's a gap or a distance between that with friends. I had that for many years with my own mother, very formal, consistent, and we were able to change that dynamic. But I wanted to have more of a dialogue. I didn't want to have that separation with my son. So that was my why, and I think I've only been able to think about that after. Now that my son is grown, he's 20. Earlier I was busy with, I mean, I couldn't think about it, but now that I have a couple of, I can take a step back, I realized what I did and how hard it was really.

Mary (00:16:02):

Those are really great points, especially the one about what works for the child. Every child is different. You mentioned some children respond well to this type of parenting and some don't. So how did you measure feedback from your child? Was it like you were very explicit in asking him questions, or was it just observation like, oh, this is working for him and let me continue to do this? Or how was that?

Jessica (00:16:31):

More the latter, more really just trial and error. I didn't know about you on your pretty far along in your parenting journey. I mean that started. But yeah, you just end up trying different things and seeing what works and what doesn't work, and also what works for you as a parent so that there's a factor that I think no one ever explains, or I try to read all the books and follow the techniques, but in the end, it's what works

Mary (00:17:04):

For sure. Yeah. I am a parent, as you mentioned, and my daughter is nine, she's going to be 10 next year. And so it is really interesting to see what she does respond to. My daughter's very competitive, so she likes that aspect of competition and gamification. So she responds well to those types of things. She does not respond well to feeling like she's being told what to do, so we have to kind of do reverse psychology on her. She'll do the exact opposite if she feels like you're trying to tell her what to do, it's hilarious. It really is. And then that other point you made about the punitive measures, and it harms them emotionally, spiritually, in the future, it really does because it affects their confidence, I think. And so that's something that they're going to take as they grow older. So I'm really curious to see what type of, I don't know, effects those had those things had on the people that you've read about.

Jessica (00:18:25):

Oh my gosh. I just thought this was the funniest thing. So I was writing this essay about parenting, and I was exploring that theme. And for some reason in one of my news feeds, this story popped up. I don't feel like I get these kind of stories frequently. And I had it twice in fact. And the headline was something like Son hospitalized with ruptured Spleen from a father launching Pomegranate. Or the other title was something like Father threw a pomegranate at his son for not doing his homework or something. And so literally the story was that this parent became so frustrated with their child, they threw a piece of fruit at them and the child had to be hospitalized. Oh my God. So I mean, I guess that would be the really at the extreme dream, and this was in Asia, it occurred in Asia, but even by Asian standards, that was going a little too far. But again, in the range of things. So yeah, I mean, I'm not sure what practices in the Filipino culture there are, but I did get the feeling that a lot of Asian cultures have similar practices. And then as you stated earlier, the emphasis on education as a way forward. That's huge, right?

Mary (00:19:48):

It is. It's huge. I think it's one of the central principles is every education comes first with everything. And in the Filipino culture, physical punishment is a very integral part of discipline and parenting. So I grew up with that, not as much as other kids,

(00:20:13):

But that was definitely a part of the way I was disciplined. And that's something that I choose not to do with my child. And there are complications or challenges that come with that because now as a parent, you have to think to yourself, well, what can I do? Because that's not an option anymore that I'm willing to do. So what am I going to do now? You have to be more creative and also more strategic in how you work with your child. I think that's the main difference with how I approach parenting is I think what I was shown is how do I get this child to do what I want it to do? And because of that, it's like my parents didn't really, I guess, put much emphasis on explaining to me why things are being done in a certain way. So with my daughter, we like to explain to her why this is a rule, why this is something that we're doing, so that way she can kind of understand. And whenever she's being punished, we explain to her why she's being punished and why we can't reward her for that type of behavior. Yeah. Does that make sense, that

Jessica (00:21:42):

Approach? Yeah, absolutely.

Mary (00:21:43):

Yeah.

Jessica (00:21:43):

I feel like you're doing the same thing following in. I think many of us were kind of feeling our way, right? Yeah. We're trying to basically blend the best of east and west.

(00:21:54):

It's how my thinking style, you're trying to balance it. So when I was researching my memoir, I came across, I started thinking, we have this really communal culture, and I found out there's a name for it. It's actually called a collectivist culture. And there's all these studies now and government reports on collectivistic versus individualistic cultures and how they respond to even things like vaccines or social types of programs because of our inherent biases and stuff. And so eastern societies, there's a huge value on group harmony and conformity, and that's where the parent comes in because you have to learn the rules on how you're going to fit in with everybody. And if you break the rules, that's not good. We're all cut it together. And there are good aspects of that too, but then it could go to extremes. And then western societies are the polar opposite.

(00:22:46):

Hey, individualism, self-expression, doing your thing. And of course there's criticisms of each. The tiger parenting is seen as strict and kind of formal, and that's true. But then on the other hand, then you could view Western parenting as too lax or not disciplined, and therefore you're not achieving things, not applying yourself and having the discipline to do that. So again, I was trying to figure out you guys, what do I keep and what do I let go? And so the things to keep would be that still that sense of family closeness, getting together with family. Oh, our food traditions, for sure. For sure. It's moon cake season, so I'm so excited to get that. We just had the Dragon Boat Festival now, the Mid Autumn Festival, but dragon boat, you eat these Jung or rice tamales. So these things are all wrapped around family gatherings and great memories, but even more so the legends about our culture and our history, the Prague history of China, all that. So I like that, keeping those things. But then at the same time, we want it to be more democratic, like you talked about, explaining why we do stuff so common, just because I said so. Right? But I

Mary (00:24:05):

Know

Jessica (00:24:06):

For Asian parents it's beyond because I said so. Yeah. I mentioned to my mom that when my son was ready to enter middle school, we asked, you're in the same school district, are you thinking, what about Mark Twain? That's our local one. Or what about this other school, Paul Revere that a lot of people go to? We asked him his opinion, and so leaning to go where his friends are going, which was revere a little further. When I told this to my mom, she said, never ask you guys your opinion about things like that. You just went wherever we told you.

(00:24:45):

That's why I went to six different schools between first and 12th grade. And I never even questioned it. Not even, it didn't even occur to me that I could question it. So maybe Mart Twin would've been more convenient for us. And we did know kids that went there, but then we decided to factor in his preference and a arrange of carpool and everything. So again, I think we were happy with it. We were happy with that decision. And so ultimately, I feel like I have a good relationship with my son, and he's grown at this point. The cake is baked. I did my best. Hopefully at some point that's all you can do, right?

Mary (00:25:29):

Yeah. Oh my gosh. So right about you said baked, right? He's like

Jessica (00:25:35):

Baked. But though the education thing, I did want to return to that. Okay, okay, go education. So this is really still a struggle for me. And so as you just pointed out, that's the be all and the end all. And because I ticked those boxes, I was never criticized about that. So my son did not want to apply to college. He felt like he was not ready. But he did agree very reluctantly to go to Santa Monica College, which is a great school.

(00:26:06):

But now in retrospect, I know he probably just did it for me. He probably didn't do it for himself. So now I'm kind of forcing him to do what I want him to do. And so then at some point a couple years in, he found something he really, really wanted to pursue and go all in on. And he announced to me and his dad that he was dropping out without getting any type of degree. And you can hear from my voice and just, you can see that so bugs me, and it's not just me too, right? Okay, I'm going to support my son's choices. But then say to my mom, what about my friends?

Mary (00:26:40):

Oh my God, yes.

Jessica (00:26:42):

It's not that. Or it's like my friend who her son got married and her fear was not, she doesn't care that her other kids have ink. She's thinking, are they going to wear long sleeves? Because grandma's going to see, and I'm never going to hear the end of it. So this is how we think in our community. I'm okay with it, but then I'm going to have people even now telling me, shouldn't you lay down law with regards to school, et cetera. So it's really a constant struggle. This criticism when you are a tradition breaker.

Mary (00:27:19):

Yes. So how do you deal with that?

Jessica (00:27:21):

Okay,

Mary (00:27:22):

Yes. What do you do?

Jessica (00:27:24):

I really started thinking about that and only because of the essay I was writing and then even our conversations, our informal conversations, we had started traditional. So I think there are better. And Jessica,

Mary (00:27:40):

You're kind of sounding a little muscled. Maybe you're covering the mic a little bit or,

Jessica (00:27:45):

Okay, this, is this any better?

Mary (00:27:47):

Yes, that's better. Okay.

Jessica (00:27:49):

Okay. Alright. So let me start over there. So in terms of Baker tradition breaker, yes, dealing with criticism is a thing. And so I've been thinking about what I did and I realized that there is a continuum of better and worse things. So I'm not proud to admit that I dreaded and actually avoided calling my mom at times because I knew that I would just get a lemy of all, or as we would say in Hawaii, get scolding for all the things I should be doing better and all the things I should be doing. Why isn't your son writing thank you notes for his Christmas gifts or whatever? Or have you been taken into Sunday school? So avoidance, I wouldn't say it's the most productive, but it is a strategy. Another thing is kind of the going along. So saying, oh, you know what? You're absolutely right. I'll remind him to write those thank you notes this month, that kind of palliating thing, whether or not they do it, at least you've kind of gotten them off your back for the moment. And actually something that kind of is similar to the first thing I used to joke with my friends, but I think it was not really a joke, was Why do you think I live 3000 miles away from my parents after I moved to la? That sort of helped because the parents don't see you every day. So then there's opportunity

(00:29:20):

In the long run, though I mentioned earlier about the whole therapy thing, and I want to stress this to our community. I have seen either therapist or coach or both at the same time since I was in my thirties. And the first time I went, I was really embarrassed to admit it. And then as I started telling a few friends and some of my friends are a little older, oh my goodness, living in la pretty much everyone had gone except me. I was like, wasn't taking advantage. And many employers would offer EAP programs or whatever. And that was kind of how I started utilizing that and then getting referrals. And I tell you, it has just been a godsend to have that sounding board. So that has been one of the methods. Of course, nowadays there's so many self-help methods, books, podcasts, YouTube. So there's many ways you could learn what other people have done, but I feel like that is a fact. That is the Asian way of teaching us how behave. And so to be a tradition breaker, having effective methods and bolstering yourself, it's a critical skill. They never tell you you're going to have to do this, but I think most of us figure it out. Right?

Mary (00:30:33):

Yeah. I think you shared a really big one is get help. There's nothing wrong with getting help like a therapist or a coach. Some people, it's like a group support that helps too. Yes. Right.

Jessica (00:30:51):

Yeah. It doesn't have to be the level of one-on-one coaching, but for many of us, that has been to me as when I worked in HR for a while, I was trying to normalize it by telling people, and I take my own advice. You know what you should think of it like going to the dentist. If you've got a go to the dentist, go to the dentist. If you have a heartache, emotional issues, then this is just another health practitioner like anybody else. It shouldn't be seen as something bad.

Mary (00:31:22):

Yes, for sure. And also avoidance, totally guilty of that. And a part of me even wants to be like, well, why should I feel guilty about it? Because really, there's nothing wrong with not talking to people that are going to make you feel bad about yourself. So it's kind of you creating boundaries for yourself. There's only so much that you can take and you're going to spend time, you're going to spend more time with people who make you feel good

Jessica (00:31:58):

And you should. It turns out they're now finding that that is key. Having the boundaries, all these, I'm just so amazed at because you are a bit younger than me that you learn this lesson so much sooner than me. I love that. I love that it's getting out so you can have a healthier time and less struggle. Each successive generation is learning things faster, which I just love. And avoidance is not necessarily bad. It could be if it's carried to extremes.

Mary (00:32:28):

Oh, for sure. Yes. I think if you're avoiding and that's the only coping mechanism that you're using, that can also backfire because there is value in conflict. It's not going to feel good at the time, but there's value in telling your parents or your spouse like, Hey, when you did that, that really didn't make me feel good, and I'm letting you know. So not to do that again next time. I think that's uncomfortable for a lot of people in our community to have that conversation, but if we can, it can bring us closer to each other.

Jessica (00:33:05):

A hundred percent. Yeah. I love that.

Mary (00:33:08):

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing all those things because a lot of people in our community do go through a lot of that with their families or with their community in general. So it makes it hard and sometimes discouraging when you're trying to do something different, whether that's in your personal life or your professional life. Let's shift gears a little bit and explore your career path, because I did really enjoy learning about that because as I mentioned, you demonstrate how following your dreams and curiosities isn't just for the young, it's for everyone at any age. And you also don't have to quit your day job to do it because you've had a multi-decade corporate career in HR change management, and now you've also got a consulting business that leverages that experience and that has actually led you to start and operate and just work on the projects that are driven by your passions, which are centered around food and community. And I'm talking about the work, your work as a writer and a cookbook author. So tell us about that. Tell us about those two things.

(00:34:33):

Having been a manager, director and head of marketing for several national brands, I've seen firsthand the unique needs of businesses from the inside. I also had the opportunity to work with a lot of agencies, and one thing stood out so clearly to me, a lot of them are more concerned with providing a service rather than creating value. That's why when I founded Tasty Directives, I made sure that creating value for our clients is our top priority. We understand your goals, dive deep into your market, tailor integrated strategies, and execute them flawlessly to deliver real measurable results. So if you're ready to see real growth, let's connect. Visit ww tasty directives.com/contact to schedule a free marketing consultation. Let's scale your business with taste not hassle. Now, back to the show.

Jessica (00:35:24):

As you pointed out, by having this traditional career, it did end up buying me some freedom. And I think I feel fortunate in that knowing that I didn't come from a wealthy family, that I'm going to have to make a living somehow. So I vow to myself, I'll find something I like doing. So as I showed up to work or every day that I would be learning and growing. So I did enjoy a lot of aspects of it, and it did then help me build the skills that I could then use to pursue my two dreams. One was to have my own business, and the other was to be a writer. And I also want to point out my first two businesses failed,

(00:36:05):

And I had wanted to have a business since I was a teenager, but I mean, we didn't have the internet at the time. We didn't believe it. So I tried to do some things mainly around teaching and coaching and stuff. And so I wasn't able to make it go. So I just thought, well, maybe it's not for me. I did the corporate thing and then I started my third business when my son was a teenager himself. So again, I thought maybe it wasn't important to me, but still important to me. And then finally that one, that business was successful, profitable from day one, well, successful in the sense that it was profitable. That's a society to measure success. So that has allowed me to sustain my fourth unsuccessful from a commercial standpoint business, which is around my whole book Enterprise and things I wanted to do around cooking, around community and so forth. But however, it kind of managed to balance itself out, and I feel like that's something that people overlook is, well, why not just continue your day job? And then it allows you, funds you to do things, but hopefully your day job is something you like doing

(00:37:22):

At least don't mind doing. But I really actually probably my day job a little too much. So I'm always trying to balance between that and then the writing stuff. And then I did reach my dream of publish my cookbook and see

Jessica (00:37:36):

What's going on my shoulder there. And then I am currently working on the memoir, and as you pointed out, I'm navigating this idea of telling family stories, some of them sensitive stories, and what is going to make it into the book and what does it mean in terms of my life. So it's kind of an ongoing, breaking tradition is an ongoing journey.

Mary (00:38:02):

Yes, it is. It's not a one-time thing. Tell us about your cookbook, because when this episode airs, I guess it's going to be near Thanksgiving season, and I know that your cookbook is all about food and Thanksgiving, Turkey dinners. So tell us about it.

Jessica (00:38:23):

So this didn't occur to me until after it was published, surprisingly. So I'm assuming in Filipino culture, there's something similar in Chinese culture with the nine course dinner, the 10 course dinner banquet. This is what is served at a wedding or a milestone birthday and things like that. And then growing up in Hawaii, we had the luau. So it's a big spread of different traditional foods.

Jessica (00:38:47):

So, what I finally realized was the American Turkey dinner is basically the equivalent of the luau or the nine course dinner. This is the big festival, right? However, for as I spoke with my fellow Asian Americans, many of whom I'm related to, and of course friends, it's like 99% of us plus had never really learned or even maybe had a traditional dinner American stuff. And we were used to things like our traditional side of it.

Mary (00:39:26):

Yes, growing up, that's what we did.

Jessica (00:39:29):

Japanese C, do you have rice? At Thanksgiving, he had married someone who is a ninth generation American. And so he had a very traditional idea, and it was like no rice. And I asked Japanese friend, did you have rice at Thanksgiving? And he's looking at me, don't you? Doesn't everyone, why are you even asking me this question? How is that even a question? And I have hard cousins at hardcore. It's like, I mean, when they come over, I just make a pot of rice. Oh

Mary (00:40:01):

Yeah. We always have rice at every party. It doesn't even matter what it is. It's like there's always rice. We grew up like you too, where I never really experienced a traditional Thanksgiving until I was with my partner because he's American. Yes. So I experienced an American Thanksgiving with all the fixings finally, and it's delicious. I love it. Not that ours wasn't delicious, it still is a hundred percent,

Jessica (00:40:33):

But there's this longing. One of my Korean friends put it this way. So I think it's so interesting, right? You're Filipino, I'm Chinese, I have friends that are Japanese, Korean. We're all saying the same thing. It's like you're on the outside looking in and that, but you dunno how to get it and your parents can't teach you.

Mary (00:40:55):

And Jessica, it's also a rendition of the American version. It's not even the full American version. It's like Filipino style and

Jessica (00:41:05):

Everything was out of a can, right?

Mary (00:41:07):

Yeah. Oh,

Jessica (00:41:07):

No. Green beans, sweet potatoes. I mean, anything that could come out of a can, cranberry sauce. So in effect, I had been working in doing process analysis and instructional design and all of these work skills, and I basically applied it to create this cookbook of what I would've wanted to have literally step by step by step. I wrote it down really as a legacy to my son and the next generation. But then now I'm finding, again, even many of us, my generation, we never really learned these steps ourselves. So it seems kind of counterintuitive, why would an Asian person write this? But ironically, it's logical because we are the ones that need it. As opposed to when I would show it to someone who grew up with that in the Midwest, they would say, one person said to me, I wake up on Thursday and I know exactly what to do. That just was not part of my grownup. Right?

Mary (00:42:12):

Right, exactly. No, not at all. I remember my mom struggling with attempting to make the roasted Turkey because it's not something that she grew up making.

Jessica (00:42:25):

I find this funny when I ask a Chinese person or when I tell them I wrote a cookbook about cooking a Turkey, I get one of two responses. And also Chinese people can be very blunt. So probably the most common response is, I don't really like Turkey. It's too dry. They'll just flat out say that to your face. Or if they're trying to be a little more tactful, get, I would really rather eat that. Again, there's even resistance within our community to adopting this food because it is not a traditional food. I mean, we'll take the bone and make our nice J rice soup with

Mary (00:43:09):

It,

Jessica (00:43:10):

But yeah, it's just not something that is, I mean, we don't have dishes that are made with cheese or cranberries.

Mary (00:43:19):

We're not very dairy heavy.

You see our desserts too, like steamed and coconut and rice. Yes. So pies, that's different and foreign for us too. Sweet. Yes, too sweet. I do still not put a lot of all the sugar in recipes. I grew up just not really liking too sweet desserts that are too sweet. So I like though how you originally started making this for your son, and then you realize that so many people in our community actually would enjoy it. I like that. It seems so organic.

Jessica (00:44:09):

Another part of the story. Okay, so there was that, right? My whole motivation, but the crew that worked on the book, because I had a book designer, and then I ended up working with not just a food photographer, but a food stylist. And then we worked with a printer, but they were all female owned businesses, and we were all from different countries or different backgrounds.

(00:44:38):

So myself and my book designer were both ethnically Chinese, and then our food photographer was from Mexico City, and our food stylist was from Canada. I mean, granted, that's a hugely right. They have Thanksgiving in Canada, I learned. But I loved that we were able to take our talents to bring this very authentically, traditionally American meal, but all these people from other cultures kind of envisioned what we see the American Thanksgiving as, which is this really fantastic celebration. And I also realized through the process is it wasn't only the food, but it's more because it's bringing people together food, then it kind of naturally assumes you've got to do something with it, even if it's share it with your neighbor,

Mary (00:45:28):

And we love that.

Jessica (00:45:30):

So then I realized it really resonated with, again, not just the emphasis on food in our culture, but also with the emphasis on community, community and do things, activities that would bring people together. I love that.

Mary (00:45:44):

So your book has recipes obviously, but then does it also have activities like what you just said or?

Jessica (00:45:52):

Well, what it does is it actually breaks down the process of creating a meal. I literally timed, it takes at least 20 hours to do it spread over a three or four day period. And it's all like, I have a shopping list. I have the timing of when you would do the different steps. I could do some things the weekend before and the night

Mary (00:46:18):

Before. Oh, I like

Jessica (00:46:19):

That. That's helpful. I did have a lot of information like that as far as activities, like maybe games and stuff. That's something that I've seen as adding later. That's something that I'm actually working on is sort of different things, companion pieces. One thing that I think is very different is I actually did these surveys of this is a recommended marketing practice as you know. What would you want to know?

Jessica (00:46:49):

And one of the things, and I did interviews mostly with friends and family members, but remember, my friends and family members are the ones who are afraid to cook a Turkey. What I discovered is that it wasn't so much that people can go out and buy the stuff or look for a recipe, but they had a lot of objections and fears, and they ended up coming up with this long list of these FAQs, frequently asked questions, and my book designer did a beautiful job of sprinkling them throughout the book where I answered some of the top questions that came into me and that were the biggest thing. I'd have to refresh my memory by looking, but there were, here's one that comes to mind is there were literally tactical questions. What if my kitchen is too small? Because even the smallest Turkey is about 14 pounds, so you really actually need at least a mid-sized oven if your oven is physically too small. So I answered that. I gave two answers. So one suggestion was, well, why don't you convince a friend of yours to do it or do it at their house, offer to buy all food. You're really motivated to do it. And then, hey, I'm sure they'd agree to swap their use of their kitchen for a piece of the Turkey, right? Or get yourself invited somewhere, or maybe scale back to a smaller

(00:48:14):

Piece of meat. So I mean, I tried to give reasons, but I think one of the biggest fears was failure. And that's really common in my work in change management, is the fear of failure.

Mary (00:48:28):

Jessica, I'm so sorry. I'm not What happened to my connection?

Jessica (00:48:34):

No worries. Actually I could look up the answer to your question. So maybe that was serendipitous, right?

Jessica (00:48:45):

When I was telling you there's different aspects in here. So for example, I have a picture of what a table setting might look like in the menu. And another thing suggested by actually the book designer was what are called flat lays. So this is where you could see different utensils that you would use in a visual format. I mean, literally, because she's also Chinese. She had no idea what a Turkey baser is, and here are all the ingredients you need for Thanksgiving.

Mary (00:49:18):

Oh my God, that is so helpful because if you don't grow up with it stuff, you're like, what the heck is a Turkey baster? Yes,

Jessica (00:49:27):

Exactly. So I actually gave her one. Then of course, it's like, how do I use this big one?

Mary (00:49:35):

Yeah, how do I use a Turkey baster?

Jessica (00:49:37):

So have these little sections, like this one is called real talk. If you still have doubts, you are not alone.

(00:49:45):

And it would be things like, this is an actual question, honestly, I'm afraid I'll fail. Namely the food won't look good or taste good. My guest and I will be disappointed and say, remember last year, and I'll be a social reject. Someone actually said that, and my answer was, there is that possibility that despite following my technique to the letter, that could happen. But ask yourself, if that were to happen, will it kill me? Will my picture appear on the front page of the New York Times with the caption failure? Will my guests never speak to me ever again? No, I didn't think so. So when the time comes to pull on your big boy or big girl pants and cook a Turkey, yes, you might fail, but you know what the secret grownups know is this failure is not fatal. In fact, a fail can be your greatest teacher. And those are some of the lessons that I use a lot in my teaching about technology or anything about not being afraid to fail and everything. And so that was kind of an interesting twist on the book. So it's not just the recipes and the pretty pictures of the different foods and stuff, but also I think encouraging people to go ahead and do it.

Mary (00:50:58):

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I really like how you have the visuals of the different tools and the ingredients. Again, sometimes you're like, what is this ingredient? You don't really cook with it. Another solution, potential solution that could be beneficial to your readers is ask a friend to bring another option for protein. So if something happens to yours, then there's something else that's an option if you need it. And if both are successful, great, now you have more protein, not a big deal.

Jessica (00:51:40):

Absolutely.

(00:51:43):

There's no right or wrong, but it's one way of doing things if you don't have a better idea. And I think I know some people were excited to see it because again, when we looked at some of these recipes like cranberry sauce, it's so intimidating. I know. What are cran four ingredients? And I mean literally you can make it two, well, three, if you call it the water, it's just the grandberry, some sugar and some water. I like to throw in an orange and a sesame or sesame cinnamon. Cinnamon, cinnamon. So it kind of demystifies, I mean, the fear of just cooking with these unfamiliar ingredients. Yes. We just had so much fun doing it, and I'm continuing to do these book events and stuff to just spread the word right, about getting together and enjoying some good food. And it doesn't have to be expensive either, or it is difficult to cook a big meal. There's no getting around that, but it's also worth it, right?

Mary (00:52:53):

Yes, I agree. And like you said, it is about food, obviously, but it's also about getting together. So food isn't the only thing that your guests will remember. It's important. But the company, just the fun that they're going to have is also going to be remembered bird.

Jessica (00:53:15):

And sometimes the things that didn't go right, a lot of times people remember the one thing that went wrong at their wedding or whatever, but with the making of the book, there were quite a few things that went wrong. But one of the things for me that I was really upset about sort of was I made the pies the night before, and I used a larger pie pan, a new one that I bought for the pecan pie. And it didn't turn out how I wanted. I thought I pretty much wounded. I thought it was burned, and it looked too small and puny. And I was actually kind of upset. I'm texting a food stylist the night before saying, what do I do? And she's like, you're out of time. Lemme see what I can do. And I'm like, you know that. Well, they made it look good, but that has been the most popular picture in the entire book. When I put it on social media, it gets the most love. And it's like, here's a picture that I thought was the worst that I totally failed at. And people were like, I'm still making this, or Oh my goodness, this looks so good. So

Mary (00:54:19):

That's so ironic. Ironic. Sometimes that's how things happen. Well, thank you for sharing that with us. Writing any book is not an easy feat, so I applaud you for that accomplishment. And moving on to your next book, which is the memoir about your family's immigration journey. I'm just curious, how has your family's history and your cultural roots influenced your career, your decisions as a parent, and I guess also your experience as a tradition breaker as someone who has and continues to break these traditions.

Jessica (00:55:10):

Well, I think one of the biggest things that I, I've come to realize was, I mean, just to give you a paint, a picture of where I was initially, I really felt like you could almost say I rejected my ancestors, my ancestry in saying that, wow, my grandparents didn't even speak English. I couldn't even talk to them, and I didn't think I had anything to learn from them. They had never gone to college. There was no such thing. Only as I started to research, I realized, oh my gosh, look what they accomplished. Having not the advantages of education, not speaking the language. They had so much more to overcome. And literally everything I was able to have in terms of education, career opportunities, healthcare, it's all because of them. I mean, if they hadn't gone through this, and here's another statistic that I'm still grappling with.

(00:56:21):

So in Hawaii, this number has been stable for a number of years. I'm one of about 54,000 people, Chinese of Chinese heritage. So both my parents are Chinese. If we counted mixed race people, that would be quadruple that, right? But 50,000 still sounds like kind of a lot. I'm one of 50,000, but then in America there are 5.5 million Chinese Americans. So I'm one in 5.5 million. So that seems like, again, a pretty big number. The Chinese diaspora, what people in China call the overseas Chinese? So these are just the wayward cousins that don't live at home anymore. We're called the overseas. There's 50 million of us.

Mary (00:57:03):

Wow.

Jessica (00:57:04):

But only, remember only 5.5 million live in the us.

Mary (00:57:07):

Yeah,

Jessica (00:57:08):

The majority actually almost 30 million live in Asia, Vietnam, Thailand, places like that, right? Malaysia, Singapore. But all that, even the 50 million, let alone the 54,000, right, is a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the 4.1 billion people that live in the motherland, the Chinese people that are there in our home country. And so how lucky was I to be able to grow up in what I sometimes call the land of rainbows and sea turtles? How was I selected out of those billions and billions of people? And I'm just one of a very small number of people. So it became really important for me to try to document the legacy of these people. But how did they break away? It wasn't that easy for them to break away and that to overcome so much. And some people, a lot of people didn't make it.

(00:58:08):

So I also started to realize that my grandparents in their own way had to break tradition for sure. They were moving away. Even a small thing like naming practices. So in a lot of Asian countries, your last name comes first. So imagine you're in this huge country, everybody puts their last name first, and you go to this tiny country and you got to reverse the order of your name. And remember, that's your new name. And in China you had multiple names depending on your age. You had a school name, you had a married name. I don't know how to explain it. I didn't know that one name. That's it. Oh, wow. So there are lots of ways where they had to change how they do things. And in a sense, I now see myself as actually just continuing their journey of assimilation with cooking a Turkey being the latest. My grandparents were great cooks. So now here I'm going to take some of their DNA, the cooking gene as I call it, and start to apply it to other kinds of foods that we can incorporate. And this can be in addition to our nine course, in addition to our Hawaiian luo, we can now experience American traditions as well. So yeah, I think in terms of influencing my journey for sure, but I do think that there are things that similar to before, I want to keep or let go.

(00:59:40):

So I mean, I want to pass down the sense that they were people who kind of give more of a view of them as a person, not just a name on a family tree or a black and white photo or something, but give a sense of who they were as a person that they lived. They struggled as we do. But at the same time, I also discovered a lot of the families during laundry and some very difficult things. I think in some of our informal conversations, I alluded that I was really shocked to find incidents of domestic violence, addiction, sexual assault, and suicide. And I'm just still grappling with those things and how they're part of my story and whether or not to even include them.

(01:00:31):

But those are things I don't want to repeat. And we talked earlier about coping with different ways to be tradition breakers. And I think that's a way to be a tradition breaker and not be the things that partly maybe came because people did not have a way to express themselves, and they just dropped and they didn't have a way to cope. And therefore it devolved into unhealthy ways of coping. I mean, that's what we know. Some of these things are rooted in for sure. And so my parents were able to break the cycle on a number of those things. And I want to continue that. I want to continue to break the cycle of generational trauma and find a new path. And I think that that is a very worthy tradition worth breaking, breaking the bad aspects and making something new and hopefully something that my ancestors would be proud of.

Mary (01:01:25):

Oh, that's beautiful. And you're totally right. That's a form of tradition breaking. And I think it's so valuable that you're finding all this out. Like you mentioned, it's sturdy laundry. Yes, of course. It's hard to learn while you're discovering all these things. And at the same time, it's so important because like you said, you don't want to repeat those. And now we've actually been given this new environment where we can have the resources and the time and not have the, I guess, the societal taboo or the criticism that a lot of people face when they were trying to get help during that time, or even think about or accept the fact that they may need help. During that time, everyone was so concerned with just surviving in so many different worlds, and there wasn't really time for them to think about those things.

Jessica (01:02:30):

And I will add that these resources that we partially take for granted, they didn't have access. So there was no recourse in some cases. And so their recourse was an ineffective adapting technique, but it was a method right to cope. It

Mary (01:02:54):

Was a method.

Jessica (01:02:56):

It was a way to cope with their

Mary (01:02:57):

Situation. It was the best that they could do at the time.

Jessica (01:03:00):

A hundred percent. Yeah.

Mary (01:03:03):

Well, what advice would you give to other people? And I'm sure, I mean, you've already given us so many pieces of wisdom and advice throughout the conversation, but is there anything else that you would share with others who might feel hesitant or constrained by their cultural or familial traditions?

Jessica (01:03:31):

I mean, I think two things. One is that if you choose to go on the path, as I think many of us have to break the tradition, just be prepared for criticism. It's the Asian way. That's how we communicate. We should have, there are ways to cope with it. Even avoidance is not necessarily the worst. And again, we have so much available to us here in America, and we don't have to be worried about some of the stigma of the past. So just know you're not alone. Have faith that things are going to work out. We're all in this together. And then the other thing, I shared this with you was there is no expiration date on your dreams. So hey, look at me. And also too, I'm so inspired by other women my age or even older starting businesses. My neighbor has a restaurant and a gift shop in Hawaii now. I mean, right? So it's like it really, I look at that and I say, rather than thinking I'm going to be sitting in a rocking chair somewhere, I still have a long runway. So again, for any tradition breakers that are watching, you don't have to feel like your life ends at some point. You could just keep going as long as you feel that you would like to. So again, just keep that in mind. There is no expiration date. You have no expiration date. So again, thanks for having me on the show.

Mary (01:05:05):

Of course. That great. Less insight from you. So Jessica, if anyone wants to get ahold of your cookbook, where can they find, and also if anyone wants to connect with you for, I don't know, anything like projects or just want to keep in touch, how can they do that?

Jessica (01:05:27):

Well, I think you're going to post all the links we'll mention about that. But I did want to mention because of the timing of this, that I am going to be doing a free author talk in November at a bookstore called The Book Jewel. It's in Westchester. It's one of our indie bookstores, and so that'll be November 9th at 3:00 PM Family Friendly Event, totally free. So just invite everyone to join for that. It'll be Author Talk book signing. Again, optional. I'll be bringing sample recipes from the cookbook as well as my recipe for my own recipe for footy snack mix, which is so delicious, which I've had. So for that alone. And then of course, my profile is at Savvy Friends Press on Facebook and Instagram. I'll say

Mary (01:06:21):

That again. Say that one again.

Jessica (01:06:23):

It's called At Savvy Friends Press on Instagram and Facebook and that I'll be posting reminders about upcoming events and so forth. You can also purchase the Turkey Savvy Cookbook. It'll show bookstores, but also it's online on Amazon, and you can also go to my website, savvy friends press.com, www savvy friends press.com. So yeah, would love to hear what you guys do for Thanksgiving. I always love comparing notes and I think that would give you an idea how to reach it. Reach me.

Mary (01:07:01):

Yes, I'll make sure to include all the links in the show notes and send post pictures of your guys' recipes that you make from Jessica's cookbook. So that would be fun if we can all see what you all are making. I think that's it. Thank you so much, Jessica, for allowing me to ask you all these questions, and thank you everybody for joining us. We'll see you next time on Tradition Breakers. Bye everybody. If you like this episode, consider subscribing and leaving a rating and review. Tradition Breakers is produced by Tasty Directives and the theme music is produced by DJ Professor Moses.