Tradition Breakers Episode 4 with Vasavi Kumar

Episode 4 of Tradition Breakers is for anyone who has ever struggled to fully embrace their true self or for those who ever felt split between 2 very different cultures. My guest today is Vasavi Kumar, a first-generation Indian immigrant who has firsthand experience breaking free from societal and cultural expectations. And because of that, she now helps others do the same, empowering them to find and embrace their authentic voice. Vasavi is a Columbia University trained therapist, speaker, and the author of Say It Out Loud, a transformational book that teaches you how to harness the power of your voice, listen to your deepest thoughts, and boldly pursue your dreams. In this episode, we discuss the techniques and practices outlined in her book, as well as diving into certain pivotal life moments, from her upbringing to the challenges of navigating bipolar disorder, divorce, addiction, and more. So without further ado, here’s my conversation with Vasavi Kumar.

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Learn more about Vasavi and her book, Say It Out Loud.

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Transcript

Mary: Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of Tradition Breakers. I am your host, Mary Vallarta, and as you know, this podcast is all about sharing the amazing stories of AAPI folks who chose to break from tradition to follow their own personal, spiritual, or entrepreneurial paths. This episode is for anyone who has ever struggled to embrace their true selves. My guest today is Vasavi Kumar, a first-generation Indian immigrant who has first-hand experience breaking free from societal and cultural expectations. And because of that, she now helps others do the same, empowering them to find and embrace their authentic voice. Vasavi is a Columbia-trained therapist, speaker, and the author of Say It Out Loud, a transformational book that teaches you how to harness the power of your voice, listen to your deepest thoughts, and pursue your dreams. In this episode, we discuss the techniques and practices outlined in her book, as well as diving into certain pivotal life moments, from her upbringing to the challenges of navigating divorce, addiction, and more. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Vasavi Kumar.

Commercial: Before we jump into today's podcast, I want to share a bit about my marketing and creative agency, Tasty Directives. Having been a manager or director and head of marketing for several national brands, I've seen firsthand the unique needs of businesses from the inside. I also had the opportunity to work with a lot of agencies, and one thing stood out so clearly to me. A lot of them are more concerned with providing a service, rather than creating value. That's why when I founded Tasty Directives, I made sure that creating value for our clients is our top priority. We understand your goals, dive deep into your market, tailor integrated strategies, and execute them seamlessly to deliver real measurable results. So if you're ready to see real growth, let's connect. Visit www.tastydirectives.com/contact to schedule a free marketing consultation. Let's scale your business with taste, not hassle, and now back to the show.

Mary: Vasavi, thanks so much for being here. I'm super excited to chat with you today.

Vasavi: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you.

Mary: Yay! So my first question has to do with your early life growing up, right? So can you share a bit about your upbringing and what some of the expectations were for your family or community?

Vasavi: Yeah, I grew up in a, I'm a first generation Indian immigrant. I grew up on Long Island where it was predominantly white and it was very hard for us. There was a lot of pressure because at home we were expected to be Indian and follow the traditions and follow the norms and at home. I mean, and that school I needed to fit in and I went to a school that was predominantly white and that was very difficult for me because I always felt like I had to split myself. When I was at home, I had to be more Indian. At school, I had to be more Americanized, Westernized and so it was really hard growing up for me especially because I just wanted to be myself. I just wanted to, whoever that is, right? I was always on this quest for myself but it was very hard for me because I felt very split growing up.

Mary: Mmm, yeah. So what were some of the things that you did to deal with that growing up? Like were you even aware of that at the time?

Vasavi: Oh, absolutely because I was bullied a lot when I was a kid for being Indian and for my mother wearing a dot on her head for example or my name being Vasavi and being the only Indian in a school of mostly predominantly white kids. At the age of 12, I remember I was in middle school and I really wanted to fit in with the cool girls who used to bully me and so I started smoking cigarettes with them at the age of 12. I don't smoke anymore but I remember taking my first drag of a cigarette and I thought to myself, okay finally I'm going to be accepted by these same girls who are constantly making fun of me and constantly bullying me and I like sold my soul at the age of 12 it felt like. I really, I did a lot of things that and that's like the first memory that pops out right because you shouldn't be smoking a cigarette at 12 years old. We shouldn't be smoking at all but at the age of 12 especially that's a very early age to start partaking in these activities that are just very unhealthy for us but I did that so I could fit in.

Mary: Yeah so you were 12 at the time and how did that shape your I guess understanding of how you want to proceed with your life?

Vasavi: You know at that age I don't think I thought too much of it but I know that as I got older I always felt that split inside of myself like I need to fit in somewhere and so I just found myself being a chameleon in every avenue that I explored whether it was at home whether it was with the kids at school whether it was in college. I knew though that for me personally and this is you know when I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder at the age of 19 I read this book called The Tao of Bipolar Disorder and one of the things that it said is that people who struggle with bipolar disorder always feel a sense of conflict within and in order for them to heal themselves they need to find a place of oneness within and so at the age of 19 I really started to explore what that meant to be at one with myself and that's really when my journey started Mary when I was 19 and I knew that I could no longer be split between these two cultures that I was living in right the American culture and the Indian culture and so I went out many different paths yoga mindfulness therapy coaching I started therapy at the age of 12 and then I became a therapist I went to school for social work and I became a therapist at the age of 28 and so I I think even with that first memory of smoking a cigarette at the age of 12 I knew firsthand what it felt like to feel conflicted within doing something that I knew I shouldn't be doing because it was going against my own values I didn't realize those were my values at the time because I was so young but I yeah but I did know that that was not how I wanted to live anymore and so as far as how I wanted my life to proceed of course I wanted to have a sense of oneness within but that's really hard when you're constantly trying to please everyone around you right.

Mary: You were like living in two different worlds and it seemed like you were battling two sides of yourself.

Vasavi: Yeah constantly always always battling who I should who I should be in order to fit in versus who I know myself to be based on my own upbringing based on my culture based on my values and I'm not saying the Indian culture is the end all be all but I was raised with really good values you know but I ignored those values because I want it so badly to be accepted.

Mary: So you explored therapy, mindfulness, you listed a lot of really helpful things that have been known to open people's minds right and really help them uncover themselves. What worked for you and are there certain things, obviously you're a therapist, but like yeah what are some of the things that really helped you?

Vasavi: I will say the number one thing that has helped me and I even wrote a book about it, my book Say It Out Loud is all about this, it's it's your self-talk right so I wrote about my self-talk and how it has the ability to change the conversation that you're having with yourself, the thoughts that you're thinking, the feelings that you're experiencing and eventually the actions that you're taking or not taking so for me myself talk learning how to talk to myself with more kindness with more compassion with more understanding with more curiosity has really helped me that is my greatest tool and I will sing that till I die I will say that till I die that if you don't learn how to speak to yourself with compassion you're going to be struggling for a very long time that really helped keeping my inner circle very small I jokingly say that my inner circle is the size of a Cheerio I don't have a ton of friends that I'm not interested in changing that anytime soon I have very few close friends I have a lot of acquaintances a lot of associates but myself talk keeping my inner circle small and really practicing the self-love that you see out there on Instagram which is like take a bubble bath yeah and do this and do that get a manny petty and like yeah that's all very surface and that's really helpful and it makes you feel pretty and I love getting my nails done I love getting my hair done I love getting facials I love all of that okay I'm a Taurus so I love all things luxury but the biggest thing that has helped me is my relationship to myself and how I speak to myself on a daily basis.

Mary: So is that completely new for you growing up or was that sort of modeled in any way by your family by people that you looked up to?

Vasavi: That's a great question. My father would, and I write about this in my book, when I was younger I would often watch my father get ready for work and he would stand in front of the mirror and he would be combing his hair and fixing his tie and he would he would say out loud in front of the mirror "today is going to be a great day I'm going to sign new clients today." He ran his own practice, he was a CPA, and he would always say like "I'm going to get new clients today today is going to be a great day" and so I always saw my father speaking words of life into like breathing life into what he wanted and he would do that through his spoken words. So I saw that from a very young age with my father watching him and how he spoke to himself. He was always very encouraging, very compassionate, very understanding and so I did see that a lot growing up but I didn't always practice it because obviously practicing it is much harder than just appreciating it.

Mary: Completely, completely. That reminds me of this concept that Sufi poets tend to say they say that you can breathe something like this please don't quote me exactly but they basically say that you can breathe life or that you can speak life to someone just as you can speak death onto someone.

Vasavi: Yes absolutely yeah words are very powerful

Mary: it's like a magic spell almost kind of.

Vasavi: And that's exactly how I feel and that's what I work on with my clients. It's not just their self-talk though okay it's also the story it's basically the story that we're telling ourselves the story that we're telling ourselves on a day-to-day basis what are we saying about ourselves to ourself how do we speak about ourself to other people what are we putting out there in the world and so if you if you're in business and you're building a business and or a brand or you just want to feel more authentic in your relationships and you're wondering why it's hard for you it's really important that you start to look at how you're speaking to yourself because we want everyone else to treat us with respect and kindness right but it starts with how we speak to ourselves first.

Mary: Completely so when you are on this journey you know exploring different modalities really being specific and intentional with the people that you had around you, did you encounter any resistance from your friends at the time or your family when you were going through this process?

Vasavi: You know when I became a coach I became a coach at the age of 28 I'm 42 now my father who I love very much and has always been my greatest advocate he didn't like the coaching industry and he would make fun of what I was doing I mean he was very it was weird because he was very encouraging but when I started to speak in like coach speak and I started to like use different types of jargon and language to describe what I was doing he would kind of you would kind of poo poo all over it and my mother and father when I started my business they always set to me go get a job why are you starting your own business you don't have insurance you don't have this I mean obviously now I have all of those things I have my health insurance I have all that stuff you know what I mean but when I first started I got a little bit of pushback a lot of pushback actually that I should I should just go get a job because you have to understand I have two masters I have a master's in education I have a master's in social work I'm very highly qualified trained skilled and so they just didn't understand why I would be self-employed when I could just get a job.

Mary: How did you navigate that because up for some people that's enough to kind of go that route and I'm not saying that's good or that's bad obviously you didn't you pushed through was that easy for you or was a challenging?

Vasavi: It was very challenging because there was a part of me that was like maybe they're right it would be easier like I started to speed into the lies but I only got one job in the past when did I start my business 14 years ago and I was a TV host I was a TV host here in Austin Texas that was one job that I had rather than that I've always been self-employed it was hard for me because of course I want security I want financial security we all want that I mean I think most of us want that you know but for me that was really important and there was a part of me that was like I should just go get a job but something always brought me back to entrepreneurship I was always brought back to being self-employed being an entrepreneur doing my own thing because I don't like being told what to do I'm a true tradition breaker like I could have easily taken my degrees gotten a really nice paying job I could have done that but I know my person I know myself and that's what I want to say to your listeners it's so important for you to know yourself because as you're trying to break the traditions that the your family might not be approving of you have to have a strong sturdy sense of conviction sense of conviction and sense of self because you will be told many things.

Vasavi: Yes and it's very easy to fall victim to that and say oh maybe they're just right they're my elders they know what they're talking about I don't know what I'm talking about but it's like no you you got to know yourself first and foremost because it's very easy to fall victim to listening to what other people say.

Mary: That's really interesting for you to say because what you've shared so far about your journey it's like you were you were aware of like your two sides of yourself um you know this these sides that were in constant battle as you look back do you think that one side one or do you think that a completely new side emerged out of all this work that you've done?

Vasavi: I think it's both I think I still deal with the conflict I still deal with the conflict within like I'm single now I'm I don't have any children I've never wanted to children my sister is married she has kids I don't get any pressure about having kids or anything like that but there's you know but if you look at you know traditionally in the Indian culture I I'm a daughter I should be living closer to my parents I should be taking care of my parents right now but I'm not my older sister does that so there's that conflict within myself still to this day like oh should I be should I move back home? Should I be with my parents? Should I do you know, but like you said, there is a new part of me that has emerged, and that part of me has blended everything together. Like I go home once a quarter—that's how I have found a compromise. I'm never going to live back home with my family. That's just not in the cards. That's just not what I want. I've always wanted my space, my freedom to do what I want. I’ve wanted geographical space from my family; that's just how I've operated. And I'm not mad about it—that's just who I am as a person. Like, you can't deny who you are as a person and what you want. But to answer your question, yeah, I still deal with a little bit of the conflict within, but there is this new side that has found a way to blend both and not feel so guilty about choosing my path.

Mary: Yeah, it seems like—and this is a common theme that I've been seeing with the people I’ve interviewed on the podcast—that being a tradition breaker doesn’t mean that it’s going to feel easy or be without challenges. Breaking tradition and being yourself sometimes can be the most challenging thing you do.

Vasavi: Oh, it absolutely is. Because it's our inner guilt that we have to deal with, right? Like, I’m not constantly fighting with my guilt, but I am definitely aware of it. And I have guilt that shows up from time to time, especially with my father being sick. He has a neurological condition, and it’s progressively declining. His speech is affected, his walk is affected—he doesn’t walk on his own anymore, and he can’t talk. It affects everything. So, especially with all that going on, that guilt has been amplified. Just yesterday, for example, I was really sad thinking about my father, and I called my mother, and of course, the first thing she said was, “Why don’t you just come home? Just come home.” And I get it—it would be good for me to come home and see him, but I’m not transplanting myself back to the East Coast. That’s just her go-to, like, “Come home, be with the family.” But that’s not how I’m wired. I deal with my grief in my own way, and I process that on my own.

Mary: It sounds like your self-awareness is really strong. You know, you mentioned your book Say It Out Loud. Writing a book seems like a major undertaking. What was the driving force or the moment that made you feel compelled to write Say It Out Loud and share your message at that scale?

Vasavi: So, funny enough, I actually wanted to write a book about seven to eight years ago, and I started working on one back then. Thank God it didn’t get published because I didn’t know what I know now. But I got approached by an agent to write Say It Out Loud, and we mapped out what the book was going to be about, which was all about how to talk to yourself. I’m not a journaler—I don’t journal, I talk to myself. I’m a verbal journaler. That’s how I process things. So, I wanted to share my story and the tools I use to talk to myself out loud and navigate life’s challenges. The book is not just a memoir. I wanted it to be a guide for others to start speaking to themselves with more compassion. It’s filled with prompts and exercises, and it’s all about using your voice, not necessarily writing things down.

Mary: That’s really powerful. Now that you mention being a verbal journaler, it makes me think about how I’ve never really been into journaling myself, and I used to feel bad about it. But I've always talked to myself, too, and that’s been my way of processing.

Vasavi: Yes! You’re a verbal journaler! Welcome to the club! You don’t have to feel bad about not journaling. I never felt bad about not writing things down because talking to myself always worked for me. We have to find what works for us.

Mary: That’s so true. And now that you mention that, I’ve started using tools like ChatGPT to talk things out when I need to process ideas, and it’s been really helpful.

Vasavi: Same here! I love using ChatGPT to brainstorm, refine ideas, or even just get things off my chest when I don’t want to wait for a therapist or a friend. It reflects things back to me in a way that helps me process quicker.

Mary: Exactly! It’s become this tool for instant reflection and interaction when I need it. I think people can use it in many different ways.

Vasavi: Absolutely, and that’s what I talk about in my book. You can talk to yourself—whether it’s out loud, using a tool like ChatGPT, or even in silence with your intuition. One chapter in the book is called “Ask Your Intuition Out Loud,” and it’s about how we all have this voice inside of us that will never steer us wrong. We just need to sit in silence and listen to it. We don’t always need to look outward for answers. We can trust ourselves.

Mary: That’s such an important point. Bottling things up is so common, especially in the Asian American community. I think your work really helps people open up and give themselves a chance to speak and be heard.

Vasavi: Yes, exactly. We spend so much time doom-scrolling or searching for quick fixes online, but we forget that we are our own best source of wisdom. If we learn to tune into ourselves and talk out loud, we can start solving our own problems. We don’t need to suffer in silence.

Mary: In your book, do you help people practice and exercise that muscle of learning how to tune in and listen to their intuition or their guiding voice?

Vasavi: Absolutely. In Say It Out Loud, I give about 50 ways to unplug and tap into your intuition. One simple way is to keep your phone out of your bedroom when you sleep. Try waking up without an alarm. Drive in silence instead of always listening to podcasts or consuming information. I share many techniques to help people reconnect with their intuition and create space for their inner voice to emerge.

Mary: That’s such great advice. Do you also guide people on how to decipher if the voice they’re hearing is truly their intuition or someone else’s influence?

Vasavi: Definitely. In my one-on-one coaching program, Born to Express, we dive deep into this. I work with people who want to feel more authentic and vulnerable in their relationships and businesses. Part of that work is understanding whose voice you’re listening to—whether it's your intuition or external conditioning. Many of us are influenced by societal expectations or family pressure, but once we become more self-aware, we can separate those voices and follow our own inner wisdom.

Mary: I completely agree. Being authentic with yourself is the ultimate form of authenticity. It’s about stopping the lies we tell ourselves.

Vasavi: Exactly! Stop lying to yourself. Be honest about what you really want. So many women downplay their desires. They’ll say, “I’m fine with this,” or, “I’m grateful for what I have,” but deep down, they want more. Gratitude is great, but it’s not an excuse to stop dreaming bigger. You can be grateful and still want more.

Mary: Yes, I love that! Two things can be true at the same time—you can be grateful and want more. Is this concept explored in your book too?

Vasavi: Yes, absolutely. I have a chapter called "Desire and Decide Out Loud," which is all about owning your desires and making decisions based on them. We downplay our desires because we feel guilty or selfish for wanting more, but it’s okay to want more for yourself. I map that out in the book too.

Mary: That’s such an important message. This next question is for our listeners who might be aspiring authors. What advice would you give to someone looking to start writing a book?

Vasavi: My number one piece of advice is to have a great outline. Don’t just start writing from page one without a plan. You need to know the stories you want to share, the lessons you want to impart, and the exercises you want to include. Get really clear on the structure before you begin. This will make the writing process smoother and more enjoyable. I learned this from my own experience. I had an outline, but I could have had a better one. Now, I tell everyone to make sure their outline is rock-solid before they start writing.

Mary: That’s such practical advice! It can be easy to get lost if you don’t have a clear structure.

Vasavi: Exactly. When you have a clear outline, you know where you’re going, and the words will flow more easily. Every chapter of my book starts with a story, and I knew ahead of time which stories I wanted to include. Being clear on that made the writing process so much more enjoyable for me.

Mary: Thank you for sharing that! You’ve explored so many different parts of yourself throughout this journey, but you’ve also worked with so many different people. Have there been any pivotal lessons or moments that have stood out to you during your work with others?

Vasavi: There are so many, but one that always stands out is when I was 9 years old, my father’s brother committed suicide. He hung himself from a ceiling fan. It happened on September 1st, and I still remember it vividly. That experience has always stayed with me because, at such a young age, I understood the pain that comes from feeling like there’s no other way out. My father told me how he died, and it wasn’t a secret in our family. We talked about it openly. Even today, I think about how it could have been avoided. I truly believe that when someone takes their own life, they’re in such a desperate, painful place that they see no other solution. I don’t believe suicide is selfish—when people say that, it really bothers me. It’s easy to judge someone who’s no longer here, but they were in such immense pain.

That moment is a pivotal memory for me, and it has driven much of the work I do today. I never want anyone to feel like their only option is to keep things bottled up or, worse, take their own life. It’s why I’m so passionate about giving people a space to say it out loud, to express what they’re going through, and to release that pain before it becomes too much to bear.

Mary: Wow, that’s such a powerful and tragic memory, but it clearly had a lasting impact on the work you do today. It sounds like your parents were really supportive in getting you into therapy at a young age.

Vasavi: Yes, they were. But I have to give myself some credit because I was the one who asked to go to therapy. At 12 years old, I told my parents I couldn’t talk to them anymore. I remember standing in the kitchen with my mom yelling at me for smoking. She found a cigarette in the toilet, and she was furious. I just couldn’t take it, and I told them, “I need to go to therapy. I can’t talk to you guys.” So, my dad found me a therapist, and a week later, I was in therapy. That moment set the stage for my lifelong journey with therapy and self-awareness.

Mary: That’s incredibly mature of you, especially at that age. Were you the eldest growing up?

Vasavi: No, I’m actually the youngest. I have an older sister who was, and still is, the model child. She became a doctor, married a white guy—which my parents weren’t too happy about at first—and she’s got two wonderful kids. I was the one who went off the beaten path, so to speak. I went to an Ivy League school, which checked off one of my parents’ boxes, but other than that, I’m not a box-checker. I’ve always been the one to do things my own way. I have two master’s degrees and was married by 26, but I got divorced at 31. So, I’ve done a lot of things outside of what would be considered “normal” or traditional.

Mary: It sounds like your divorce was a big turning point for you. What helped you get through that period in your life?

Vasavi: Honestly, after my divorce, things got really dark for me. It was probably the hardest 10 years of my life. My parents cut me off emotionally and financially because they didn’t agree with my decision to leave the marriage. In fact, they sided with my ex-husband and even gave him money to start a business. I ended up in a relationship with someone eight years younger than me, and we both got heavily into drugs. It was a very dark time. I eventually went to rehab twice, and I’ve been sober for five and a half years now.

Mary: Thank you for being so open about that. It sounds like rehab was a huge part of your journey toward healing.

Vasavi: Yes, it was. I went to rehab twice, and the second time was when I really committed to doing it right. I knew I had to change my life. I’ve been sober from my drug of choice, cocaine, for five and a half years now, and I’m really proud of that. I talk about my addiction and recovery in my book because I believe it’s important to share those parts of my story so others know they’re not alone.

Mary: That’s incredible. It’s clear you’ve been through so much, and it’s inspiring that you’ve turned those experiences into something that can help others. What’s next for you on your journey? Are you writing another book, or are you focusing on other projects?

Vasavi: Funny you ask! I’ve been struggling with writing lately, to be honest. After I wrote Say It Out Loud, I felt like I was done for a while. Writing a book is a huge emotional and mental commitment. Right now, I’m focusing on working one-on-one with clients and expanding my coaching practice. I love helping people tell their stories and connect with their authenticity. I’m also just enjoying life—traveling, spending time in Mexico at my second home, and really taking the time to savor where I am right now.

Mary: That sounds amazing, Vasavi. I’m so happy to hear that you’re in such a good place after everything you’ve been through. It’s inspiring to see someone not just survive difficult times, but thrive.

Vasavi: Thank you. I really appreciate that. It’s taken a lot of work to get here, but I’m finally in a place where I feel good about where I am. I’m excited about the future, and I love the work I’m doing with my clients.

Mary: That’s so wonderful to hear. For our listeners who want to connect with you, what’s the best way for them to reach out?

Vasavi: The best way is to connect with me on Instagram. My handle is @VasaviKumar. You can send me a DM or a voice note—yes, I love voice notes! If you’re interested in working with me, I also offer 30-minute calls. You can book that through my Instagram or my website, VasaviKumar.com. I have a group program called Say It Out Loud Group that’s enrolling again in January, and I offer virtual one-on-one coaching as well.

Mary: That’s awesome. I love that you’re so accessible to your audience. Before we wrap up, is there anything else you’d like to share with our listeners?

Vasavi: I think we’ve covered a lot! But if there’s one thing I’d like to leave your audience with, it’s this: If you want to be a tradition breaker, you have to start by sharing your story. Don’t keep things bottled up. Get into spaces where you feel safe to say it out loud. Talk to someone who understands what you’re going through, and don’t be afraid to express your truth. There’s nothing more powerful than owning your story and living authentically.

Mary: That’s such great advice. I really hope our listeners take that to heart. Thank you so much, Vasavi, for being here today and for sharing your incredible story with us. I know it’s going to resonate with a lot of people.

Vasavi: Thank you, Mary. It’s been an honor to be on the show.

Mary: Thank you all for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider subscribing, leaving a rating, and reviewing. Tradition Breakers is produced by Tasty Directives, and our theme music is produced by DJ Professor Moses. We’ll see you next week!