Tradition Breakers Episode 2 with Christine Chang
Tradition Breakers Episode 2 is for those of you looking to create the relationships you’ve only dreamed of in both your personal and professional lives.
My guest, Christine Chang, is a podcast host and a bestselling author and speaker. She helps high-performing women who are kicking ass in life, but struggling in LOVE, by teaching them self-awareness, boundaries, accountability, and communication skills. In my conversation with Christine, she shares her journey from childhood to adulthood, her personal, familial, and relationship struggles, and the resources and teachings she encountered that led her to building the life she loves today.
Tradition Breakers is a podcast that highlights the stories of AAPI individuals who broke from tradition to follow their own artistic, creative, and entrepreneurial paths. It's hosted by Mary Vallarta and produced by Tasty Directives, an integrated marketing agency based in Venice, CA.
Schedule a free marketing consultation with Tasty Directives
Learn more about Christine Chang
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Episode 2 Transcript:
Mary Vallarta: Hello everybody, welcome back to Tradition Breakers. As you all know, this is the podcast that is all about sharing the amazing stories of AAPI folks who broke from tradition to follow their own artistic, creative, and entrepreneurial paths, whether that be in their professional or personal lives.
My name is Mary Vallarta. I am your host for the podcast.
Thank you all for joining me again.
Today’s episode is for those of you looking to create the relationships of your dreams in both your personal and professional lives. So if that’s something that you’re looking to—or maybe even struggling to do—you’re gonna wanna tune in.
My guest, Christine Chang, is a podcast host and a best-selling author and speaker. She helps high-performing women who are kicking ass in life but struggling in love by teaching them self-awareness, boundaries, accountability, and communication skills.
In my conversation with Christine, she shares her journey from childhood to adulthood, her personal, familial, and relationship struggles, and the resources and teachings she encountered that led her to building the life she loves today.
So we get deep, y’all, in this. And Christine was such a great sport when it comes to just being vulnerable and really sharing her experiences and what she’s learned with us.
So without further ado, here is my interview with Christine.
But before we jump into today’s podcast, I wanna share a bit about my marketing and creative agency, Tasty Directives.
Having been a manager or director and head of marketing for several national brands, I’ve seen firsthand the unique needs of businesses from the inside. I also had the opportunity to work with a lot of agencies, and one thing stood out so clearly to me. A lot of them are more concerned with providing a service rather than creating value.
That’s why when I founded Tasty Directives, I made sure that creating value for our clients is our top priority. We understand your goals, dive deep into your market, tailor integrated strategies, and execute them seamlessly to deliver real, measurable results.
So if you’re ready to see real growth, let’s connect. Visit www.tastydirectives.com/contact to schedule a free marketing consultation.
Let’s scale your business with taste, not hassle. Now back to the show.
Mary Vallarta: Hello, Christine. Thank you so much for joining us. I’m really looking forward to chatting with you today.
Christine Chang: Thank you, Mary. I love what your podcast is all about. I have a lot to say, so I’ll try to keep it succinct.
Mary Vallarta: Yay! As I always say, it’s a lot easier to pull it back than to kind of pack it in. So I love that you have a lot to say because I am really looking forward to listening and learning from you because you have a really diverse skill set. You’re a photographer, you’re an author, you’re a podcaster. Can you tell us how all this came to be and what inspired you to dive into everything that you’re doing?
Christine Chang: Sure. Sometimes I feel like I’m doing too many things right now and I’ll elaborate on that more—like focus and knowing where things fit in your life.
My background—I grew up in a science family. My parents, they own a biotech company in Silicon Valley, and growing up, my sister and I would work with them. It was kind of expected that we would take over the company when we grew up. I always felt like a fish out of water being a creative soul. I worked with them for a long time.
Excuse me, I kind of have a cold and nasal drip. [Laughs] You don’t have to cut that out. I just don’t want to be sniffling and stuff.
So I did that—pretty conservative and corporate. So the trade shows, you know, wearing the slacks and button-up shirts—I always felt like a fish out of water. I am very grateful that I had my parents as a role model to teach me business, or just watching them build—well, they built two different companies in Silicon Valley, and those skills are invaluable to me.
I joke, but I think it’s true. If I didn’t have them as parents, I’d probably be like a hippie skipping in a field doing something creative.
They definitely gave me some structure. They taught me how to make money, and making money feels very easy to me. I have a lot of confidence in that area.
So I did. I worked with them up until, I would say, on and off until I was about 25. But I knew in my soul—you know when things—you know something until it hits a certain point when you know there’s a breaking point? Like, I can’t do this anymore; I’m too miserable.
So I knew at a certain point that I wanted to pursue photography. Photography had been a hobby up until that point, but it lit me up. I could feel it with every ounce in my body. I could see—you know, some people, they can hear things, some people can see it—I could see that there was something for me there.
And specifically with wedding photography at this time. I liked telling these love stories. I was always very drawn to connection between humans, not just the bride and groom but families as well. So I could see it intuitively.
My photography style is more its moments—you know, it’s very candid. And I could feel it and I could see that microsecond that freezes that moment that’s so meaningful to someone and also meaningful to me.
And so it was very clear what I wanted to do. It just came down to communicating that with my parents. So at one point, you know, I did. I cried. It’s very awkward. You know, my parents—they’re back-around Chinese, Chinese. And typically, they’re not super emotional in that way. So it’s an awkward conversation, and I felt bad, I felt guilt, but I walked into my mom’s office and I said, “Hey, I want to move. I don’t want to work here anymore. I want to move to LA. I want to pursue photography.”
Mary Vallarta: That’s a very brave conversation to have.
Christine Chang: Yeah, but I just knew I had to do it. It was uncomfortable, but it was my truth.
Mary Vallarta: And so how did they react?
Christine Chang: My parents, overall, I know that’s not probably their ideal, you know, what they wanted, but they’ve always been pretty good about like, “Okay, if you’re going to go, you’re going to go.” They didn’t yell at me. They didn’t do anything. Just like, “Okay, it is what it is.”
So I pursued wedding photography specifically, and I did it for 15 years. I still do photography, but it’s more corporate now—corporate and families. I go for more ease now. [Laughs]
The weddings—wow, weddings are beautiful, but they take a lot of mental capacity. People care, obviously, as they should. And I think when I was younger, I had the energy for it, and I’d hop on airplanes and do the thing, and now I just want more ease.
So the corporate, same thing, I can still story-tell. I love giving people a great headshot; I love the paycheck. But now it’s more about moving toward something that takes a little less mental load so I can do other things.
Mary Vallarta: Like writing a book and starting a podcast during the pandemic?
Christine Chang: Yes! So I photographed weddings for about 15 years, and at the same time, I was blogging. My blog was very personal. I would talk about my personal growth, my dating life at the time. Before I was married—like the struggles I would have—talking about relationships and connection.
And I think that’s why a lot of people hired me was for the humanism and vulnerability behind my work. A pretty photo is a dime a dozen, especially with technology nowadays. You know, a pretty photo is a dime a dozen. It’s the feeling behind it.
I think that’s why—well, the people who hire me—that’s why they hire me.
And so I did write a lot. And then when the pandemic hit, it was kind of a blessing in a sense for me that it nudged me because I had considered years before that I don’t think I want to do wedding photography forever, but I’m known in this area. I get paid well in this area, so it’s scary to take that leap and not—but I don’t know what’s next.
And then the pandemic hit and all events were canceled. So I thought, what do I do with my time? And maybe it’s a coping mechanism. For me, I wanted to stay busy and productive. So I said, what’s one thing I’ve always wanted to do? Write a book and publish it.
And the topic is on helping modern women with dating. It’s available on Amazon called Show Up: Finding Love for Independent Women. And I just knew that this was a topic that could help a lot of women because it’s just having conversations with women and also what I went through before meeting my husband—being a high-performing woman.
Feeling confident in most areas of my life, work, I come from a good family. I have friends, I have hobbies. But why is this one particular slice of my life—the romantic part—so challenging for me? Like, what’s going on here? Like what are my patterns? Why do I keep, you know, being drawn to a particular type of person?
And it was very—it all comes from childhood stuff, you know, and you dissect it. Why was it so painful for me when someone didn’t choose me?
So I went through my personal growth journey and I just wanted to help women who are on that hamster wheel connect those dots. Because I think there’s a lot of dating advice out there, but there are very few podcasts and books that talk about how shitty it feels when you’re going through it. The frustration, the pain, especially as a high performer too, when you kind of feel like—or you show people that you always have your stuff together. And just admitting, you know, maybe this is an area in my life that I’m not good at. I have to learn something.
So I knew exactly who I was talking to, so it just came out. I mean, I wrote it and published it within three months. It was so easy for me.
Mary Vallarta: Wow.
Christine Chang: Okay.
Mary Vallarta: You knew exactly what to say and what people are probably thinking about and questioning at that point.
Christine Chang: Yes. So in that sense, it was easy. Now, feeling was similar for the calling for photography, I was just very confident about it.
My goal with it was, you know, if I could just help one person with this, I will actually feel really good.
And money-wise, I call my book sales, like, my smoothie money. [Laughs] So I have a really bad habit of going to Erewhon. If you don’t live in LA, you don’t know what Erewhon is. It’s a fancy grocery store that is very expensive. I have a love-hate relationship with it. Everything when you go in is so symmetrical and you want to buy everything. Anyway, the smoothies cost about $20. And it’s my guilty pleasure. So I call it my smoothie money. My book sales are my smoothie money so I can buy my smoothie.
Mary Vallarta: Love it. [Laughs] I mean, why not?
Christine Chang: Yes. So yes, so the book I wrote, and then based off the book, I started podcasting. So I thought, I wrote about it. And now I want to talk about it. I want to be more in front of the camera. Photography was always kind of behind the camera. I want to build this skill of connecting with people and talking on camera and on a podcast. And it’s been going well, I’ve learned so much. I’ve built a lot of skills.
I know with podcasting, it’s a lot of work—it takes a lot of energy to produce a podcast and have weekly episodes, or even two podcasts a week, which they recommend to grow. And I have some friends whose podcast is their main thing, and I see them and the work it takes. And I got clarity that, okay, that’s not what I want. I’m just going to keep it for this.
So that kind of goes back to my point of knowing where things fit in if you’re doing multiple things. Because I think you’re not going to excel at anything if you’re just doing too many things or you say, “Tell people one thing has to be your dominant thing.”
And this is me kind of going through my midlife—like, kind of finding myself again, going through the changes. And a lot of times you don’t know that until you start doing things, right? We did that a lot in our teens and 20s, where it felt like, you know, we had a little more time to do that. You could do that again. It just—it feels a little different.
I’m a little harder on myself, like, are you doing the right thing? Don’t waste your time. Don’t waste other people’s time. But that’s part of it. Like, you have to be a newbie again. It comes with, you know, like, embarrassment sometimes and just being in a vulnerable space, but that’s what it takes to level up and, you know, have that growth.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah, I love what you said about just being self-aware. Like, being self-aware about why are you creating this podcast? What is it that you want to gain from this podcast? Or what is it that you want to create and be of service for this podcast, right? And I think knowing that will allow anyone to really get clarity as to how much time do I really want to spend in order to do XYZ with whatever it is that you’re doing.
Christine Chang: 100%.
Mary Vallarta: Yes. And I’m curious about this topic that your book is about, which is what you said—dating, relationships for professional, high-performing women. What are some of like the overarching challenges or topics that you come across?
Christine Chang: Sure. So when women—why do women or men—if you tend to be a high performer, the thing that drives you is often things are never good enough, you know what? You’re never satisfied to a certain extent. And while that may be good for career and achievement, if that pours over to your personal life, you might feel like you have to earn love. It doesn’t just show up and, “Oh, someone loves me for me?” “Oh, no, that’s boring.” Like it feels very unfamiliar.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah.
Christine Chang: High performers like to be in the grind. Like that’s where we thrive. And so for a long time, I thought that I had to earn love. Like I couldn’t just be me. I had to be the best version of me—happy all the time, serving, you know, to the point where it wasn’t even authentic, it was performative. And I didn’t understand what it meant to have romantic partners that just love you for you. You don’t have to be super interesting. You don’t have to do all these things. It’s just like self-love.
First and foremost, the reasons your friends love you—your authentic friendships—not the transactional ones, the friendships where it’s, quote-unquote, “useless.” You just love the person for who they are, not because they have a podcast, not because—like my best friends, they don’t care what I do for work at all. At all. And those are—that’s my immediate friend circle, which I can count on one hand. There are other friendships as well—work friends or, you know, workout friends, things like that. So again, I think it’s important to know where things fit in your life.
Mary Vallarta: That’s a good one. That is definitely something that I can relate to in the start of my current relationship. We’re engaged now, and we’ve been together for over 14 years. And at the start of it all, I’m like, why is he doing these things or why is he so trusting? And why is— we’ve only been together for this amount of time. Like, why is he doing all this? And now I understand it’s like, well, he just loves me for me, you know, and that’s why he’s doing it. And it’s okay. And it’s not like I have to prove myself in order to get the type of love that he’s giving me. And it did take time to really understand that. So you’re right. I could totally relate to that. [Laughs]
Christine Chang: What were some of your dating patterns before you met him? Did you have any?
Mary Vallarta: I did. I had this pattern of expecting the other person to just know what I want without really communicating what it is that I want, even with myself. So that lack of clarity. And I did it because I didn’t wanna be disappointed. But yes, but at the same time, it’s like I’m setting myself up for disappointment by not communicating it with my partner. So that’s one pattern.
Christine Chang: Okay, did you have any other ones like that? Like you would choose emotionally unavailable men, was there anything like that? That seems to be a common one from the women I’ve talked to.
Mary Vallarta: Or wanting to fix—wanting to fix—I think I did have that. I think for a little bit, I had that where I felt like I knew better and that the way that I see things was the quote-unquote “right way.” So I need to teach them—totally had that. What else—what other patterns did I have? I think those were it, but maybe I just haven’t really further explored it as much as you have.
Christine Chang: Okay, I mean, I did because it was just such a big problem for me. My patterns were very clear, and they clearly were not working for me. So with the fixing for some time, it’s actually when I started my personal growth journey, which I think is kind of common because once you get those a-has and you’re really happy, you’re like, oh, I want you to be happy too. You just have to go to this landmark course. [Laughs]
Mary Vallarta: I know. I think I have one, Christine. I think my pattern was leaving, honestly. Yeah, I left a lot. I had one long relationship, which lasted eight years. And that was from high school to like, a little after college, and we were on and off, on and off. And after that, I just kind of was dating, and whenever things got quote-unquote a little weird or difficult, I would just leave. That was my pattern.
Christine Chang: Okay. Was it for self-protection or for like fear of disappointment? Or fear of commitment?
Mary Vallarta: No, it wasn’t fear of commitment. It was protection. I kind of just wanted to not—I think I got so severely exhausted with my other relationship that I was sort of just like, I don’t want to fall into that dynamic again. So it’s a lot easier for me to just leave. And then I met my current partner and he’s not for that at all. He—he’s sometimes—I feel like sometimes he knows me better than I know myself. So he just does not let me—and he hasn’t let me just pull my little tricks that I used to, that I used to pull. So yeah, it makes me feel so immature, but that’s where—that’s where I was at the time.
Christine Chang: Yeah, no, I don’t think that’s uncommon either. And I love that it sounds like he’ll fight for the relationship.
Mary Vallarta: He will fight. Yes, he—he has fought and continues to fight for the relationship, and he’s very adamant about making our relationship feel real. Like, we’re here not because we feel like we have to be for anybody else, but we want it to feel good. And that doesn’t mean that we’re gonna be in agreement with everything that we do. It doesn’t mean we don’t have any, you know, conflict. It just means that we’re here for the right reasons. And even though we’re having challenges, we still love each other and trust each other.
Christine Chang: That’s a healthy relationship. No, yeah. I love that. And I love when people talk more about the imperfections and the fighting. It’s just so—I mean, so many people feel alone these days or, you know, you’re looking at people’s highlights online.
I mean, you know, every single couple, including like Emily Blunt and John Krasinski or like Amal Clooney and George Clooney—all of them have stuff. Being in a relationship—a long-term relationship—it’s not easy, and of course, stuff’s gonna come up.
Mary Vallarta: Right.
Christine Chang: It’s learning to navigate that. Did you learn a lot from your parents when it comes to how you want to be in a relationship?
Mary Vallarta: I learned how I don’t want to be. That was very helpful. So that kind of inspired me to dive into personal growth and seek out improving my communication and intimate relationships because I don’t think it was modeled well for me growing up.
Christine Chang: Mmhmm.
Mary Vallarta: So I sought that out as an adult, and you know, our parents, they just know what they know, and I just think of how they were raised—like how my grandparents raised them. Of course, they’re not gonna have the language to do certain things. They were just never taught that. And you know, I think it’s part of maturing. You know, at a certain point, you stop blaming your parents, and then you see them as human—they’re just living life for the first time too. So, you know, I focused on myself, the skills I wanted to learn. It served me well not only in my romantic life but also in all my relationships, including my family, which tends to be the hardest one for a lot of people.
Christine Chang: Mmhmm.
Mary Vallarta: So having those difficult conversations with my parents about things—I definitely have more capacity for that. And I do it in a healthier way. I mean, things still come up, of course—like yelling matches and things like that.
Christine Chang: [Laughs] Who is this that’s coming out of me? I’m supposed to be this conscious person now!
Mary Vallarta: [Laughs] It comes out, but I think it’s good that things come out. You know, especially within the Asian culture sometimes we hold things in and suppress them. You know that just doesn’t serve anybody, and it can come out in other ways—like in your body and all the things.
But it also—I think it fosters intimacy in intimate relationships because people have to see the impact they have on you. And if you’re mad, if you’re sad, if you’re crying, and you repair that, and you’re able to repair that—that is how you form intimate relationships. And that’s how you have successful long-term marriages or partnerships, is learning to do that. And it’s something I’m still learning. It’s not easy.
Christine Chang: I hold on to stuff for a really long time. Letting go is really hard for me.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah, it’s totally not easy. I can relate to you when it comes to my family as well, where things feel like it’s more about hiding and sweeping things under the rug as opposed to meeting them head-on. And that’s what I’m striving to do right now—just kind of like, I don’t want to say “confront,” but just meeting things with honesty and not putting them aside or putting them off. Which now talking to you, I think that’s where the habit of procrastination came from—my family’s inability to meet things head-on as they come.
Christine Chang: Wow, that’s pretty powerful. And I think that as I incorporate these new practices with my family, my hope is that they and my relationship with them continue to improve and get closer.
Mary Vallarta: With you, what are some modalities that have helped you with this growth?
Christine Chang: I usually remind people of different things where I’ve been, but specifically with my communication—this isn’t for everyone—I did a program called Landmark Education, which is a part of that.
Mary Vallarta: I’ve heard of it.
Christine Chang: Yeah, it’s very—I think if you’re a logical person, you might receive it well. So it’s like a 3-day program, and it kind of, for me, helped crumble your stories. A lot of things we just think are true—like, “It’s this way,” just kind of crumbles everything. And for me, it really helped me have conversations specifically with my mom. I always had a tough time with my mom. We were just very different. She’s an Asian tiger mom, you know, a businesswoman. She was very tough on us growing up. I was a very sensitive kid. I mean, so for a lot of years I resented her. We didn’t have a very close relationship. I had my guard up with her too, because she was very critical. And it just—it didn’t make me feel good, and I didn’t know how to change that dynamic.
Through doing the program, they helped. Because you know, when people share stories, sometimes you can see yourself in those stories. So another guy had a similar problem as me. And the coach or the teacher—I don’t know what they call it—the person guiding the class—
Mary Vallarta: The leader?
Christine Chang: Yeah, the facilitator, you know, helped them and said, “Does your mom know that you love her?” And he’s like, “Yeah, I think so.” And I was thinking the same thing for myself—I’m like, “Yeah, she should.” And he’s like, “Are you sure about that?” And he’s like, “I think so.” He’s like, “How are you gonna really know?” And he said, “I can ask her.” And he’s like, “Exactly. You can ask her.”
And so I said, “Oh, that’s me.” So I guess that’s how I opened up the conversation with my mom—I called her. And I don’t normally talk like that, so it’s weird, right? It’s awkward. And I said, “Hey, Mom, I’m doing this program. I just want to ask you a question.” And she said, “Yeah, sure.” I said, “Do you know that I love you?” And I’m getting scared because it’s awkward. And she paused. And she said, “No.” She’s like, “No. I don’t know it all the time. You—you’re distant. Your sister and I have a different relationship.” She’s like, “With you, I always had trouble understanding you. And I’ve always felt like there was something that you didn’t like about me or that you were against me.”
So I heard the impact that I had on her. I was like, “Oh, my gosh, my mom doesn’t know that I love her.” You know, even though I felt she could be difficult at times, it made me really sad that she didn’t know that. Because I knew even through her toughness, I knew that she loved me. And so that kind of opened up the conversation where we could talk about everything. And I just felt this lightness, you know, where I felt stuck.
So that’s one example. And so that helped me with my communication. I read a ton of books—Eckhart Tolle, Abraham Hicks—and you know, podcasts became more available. All the pop-up personal growth podcasts I would listen to. Those are great—there’s so much information out there, right? And it’s all free, which is really nice.
But I think the most effective has actually been doing work with others. So there were also conferences that I went to. There was one called A-Fest that’s short for “Awesomeness Fest.” And it’s kind of like Summit—have you heard of Summit?
Mary Vallarta: I’ve heard of Summit.
Christine Chang: So it attracts a certain type of, I would say, high performer. They describe it as “Burning Man meets Ted Talk.” So they talk about personal growth. But the person who started it said, you know, “The real networking and connections happen after the formal stuff is done—not when we’re sitting in an auditorium.” It’s afterwards—
Mary Vallarta: Right.
Christine Chang: At these events when we’re partying, and you start to open up. That’s actually when the connections start. So they’re very intentional about creating these environments where it’s not only fun but there’s depth to it. And the people who tend to attend these things, they value growth. And you find your people. It also attracts—you know, some people are genuine, some aren’t—like in any industry or group.
Mary Vallarta: Exactly.
Christine Chang: Yeah. So you find your people. The people I’ve met through those conferences, I’m still really close with. And I love them so much. So I think it’s also important to be discerning with those things too. Because there’s a lot of internet marketing and ads coming through. I think it’s a good idea to get a referral from a friend who’s been to something before. That’s how I like to do it.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah.
Christine Chang: Just to kind of read the room. I mean, for example, at some of these conferences, some people will be really great on stage. And then I see them get off stage, and they’re married but hitting on people—cheating on their spouse. And to me, that’s out of integrity. I’m like, why would I listen to your advice if you can’t even be in integrity in this part of your life?
Mary Vallarta: Right.
Christine Chang: And sometimes that takes a while to learn. You know, some people are really good at putting on a certain front. And it takes a while to know people. But you do—you find your people. And I found mine. But now that I’m getting older, I am becoming more particular about who I want around me and close to me. Because as you know, you become who you surround yourself with.
Mary Vallarta: Right.
Christine Chang: So I get it—or placing them appropriately.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah. That’s a great point. You are the five people that you spend most of your time with, right? So it’s so important to be aware of who you are placing around you and who you’re listening to. So I completely relate to that.
Who would you say are your biggest influences or sources of inspiration that help you with your work and also your personal growth?
Christine Chang: Lots of people. One that comes to mind recently—do you know Cesar Millan? He’s a dog trainer.
Mary Vallarta: I don’t.
Christine Chang: He used to have a show called The Dog Whisperer.
Mary Vallarta: Oh wait, I do know! Yes.
Christine Chang: Yeah, him. So I followed him for a long time, and I did a workshop with him recently. We have a couple of dogs, so you go in for dog training, but through his teachings, what I actually wanted to meet him for was the spiritual aspect to his work. It’s not just dog training like you give a dog a treat and they sit for the treat. He’s a dog psychologist. He’s very intuitive, and he can read a room so quickly. It’s more about spirit and being in tune with yourself.
I thought I had high self-awareness—your self-awareness has to be impeccable in order to work with dogs well. It’s like some people train with horses because horses are very sensitive to your nervous system and can sense your energy and how you’re being. You could do the same thing with dogs because they don’t lie. They’ll walk into a house and say, “I’ll look at the dog and know exactly who everyone is in this house based on the dog,” because they don’t lie. They just respond to energy and instinct.
So anyway, in terms of spiritual practice, it’s through the dogs that he uses for spiritual practice. I really resonate with that. I just really love dogs too. And he’s also the real deal. When I met him, I wasn’t sure if he would be how he is on his YouTube videos and shows, and he is so impressive. His energy—you know, he teaches “calm, confident, love, joy.” Very simple, but very few people can embody all four of those, but he has it. A lot of people are strong in two of them. I think mine are calm and confident. I’m not sure I’m as strong in love and joy, but his energy—he shows up in a way that you’re very drawn to him. He can change the energy in a room. He’s very genuine, and he’s interested in other people. I’m sensitive to people who are not interested in others—it’s just, “This is me; this is my teaching,” and I’m very turned off by that. But he’s just a very kind, genuine person who wants to do better, and I feel it. So he’s definitely very inspiring to me.
I’m inspired by anyone who’s just very passionate about their work. Passionate and authentic. Because I think when you’re authentic, especially these days, people are automatically drawn to you because there’s just so much noise. I think a lot of people have their guard up in general and everything’s so watered down now. People are lonely, and that’s how you connect with someone—it’s relieving when you see someone absolutely authentic because it gives you permission, like, “Okay, I can admit some things that aren’t working out in real life. I don’t have it all together.” And those coaches or inspirational people are the ones that I trust the most—not someone who claims to know everything because no one really knows fully what they’re doing. If someone claims to, run away.
Mary Vallarta: Exactly. What would you say is authentic? And the reason why I ask that question is because this term “authentic” is widely used nowadays, and it can sometimes get mixed up with even rude or, I don’t know, like obnoxious or being okay with not being accountable for your actions. Am I making sense? So what do you think true authenticity really is?
Christine Chang: That’s an excellent question because I’ve never thought about it. You feel it—you feel it with someone.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah.
Christine Chang: To me, I have seen examples where, especially on social media—you hear the word a lot now, like “authentic”—but it seems like a curated authenticity where, for example, it might be a vulnerable video where they’re upset or crying about something, but it seems a little too controlled. Where I think when it’s a little too controlled, people pick up on that. For me, it might be true, and their feelings are real, but there’s almost a performative aspect to it. When it comes to that, I actually don’t consider that fully authentic.
I do think vulnerability is a big part of it, and if you’re talking about sharing those stories and things like that, I think it’s easier to share things once you’ve processed them, gone through it, and come out of it already, which is more of a lighter vulnerability. So there is value to it, and you can create a blueprint for people, but I think true vulnerability is in the moment where you say, “I’m popping on this podcast, and I’m feeling a little insecure or unsure if I have something valuable to say.” Admitting those things—I am drawn to that because it’s real, it’s present, and it’s in the moment.
So that’s kind of how I view authentic—what’s true to you. But at the same time, and this is something I’m working on—you said it can come off as rude. And that’s totally subjective. I totally own that. That’s my viewpoint. I just sometimes see people saying that they’re authentic, and at the same time, they’re like bashing other people. So I’m like, what’s the point of your authenticity at this point? Is it just to complain or air grievances? What is the point of this authenticity that you’re claiming to be communicating?
Mary Vallarta: Right. I think there’s another set of values that comes with being authentic. They might be being honest and real, but I think having tact and being kind is necessary—what you’re saying right now—how are you impacting others?
Christine Chang: Right. I think having an awareness of that, and we all have our moments. I’ve become very sensitive to people who are completely not self-aware or disregard how they may be impacting others. And I know I’m guilty of it too, and maybe I won’t know, and if I’m lucky, someone will say something to me so I’ll know, “Okay, I’m sorry, I didn’t know.” I forget not everyone talks the way I do, or not everybody feels the same way I do about something. So I think it’s really good to have people in your life who will tell you those things so you remember everyone’s different too.
Embracing where you are—I will say right now, I’m a little more direct with things because with boundaries, I realized I always thought I was really tight with my boundaries. And recently, in recent years, I realized there are some things I actually want to tighten up.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah.
Christine Chang: And so my “no’s” right now are very direct, and that can come off to some people like, “Whoa, okay, a little intense.”
Mary Vallarta: Yeah.
Christine Chang: And that’s where I’m at. Maybe I’m in my healing stage of that, and I think I’ll soften a little bit. But right now, if something doesn’t feel aligned with me, or I genuinely don’t want to do it, it is very important for me to honor that and to communicate that to the other person. I do think having tact and being gentle with it—I mean, with some of my friends, I can say “no, period,” and it’s fine. They have the same, but with others, I can be polite about it and just say, “Oh, no, I can’t make it. Thank you for inviting me.”
Mary Vallarta: That’s such a compassionate way to communicate with others, to think about how they would receive it. And I understand that sometimes that’s not always possible, or given specific contexts of where you both are at.
Christine Chang: Yeah.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah.
Christine Chang: I do have—oh, sorry, did I just cut you off?
Mary Vallarta: No, no, go ahead, go ahead.
Christine Chang: I was gonna give an example of—yeah, right now I’m at a point in my life where friendships are changing. When priorities shift—when people have kids or they get into relationships—things start changing. And something that’s come up recently—because I am a very direct speaker—I have a friend who is the opposite of that. And she admits that—she’s soft. She’s like, “I like shooting stars and rainbows,” and when she texts, it’s all shooting stars, all those emojis, and it’s very flowery, you know, thinking. And I realized through the years that I was overly catering to making her feel comfortable with how she likes to talk, to the point where it wasn’t me. Like, I couldn’t run around. I had to think—I had to think hard about how I communicated, so there wasn’t this natural rhythm to the way that we would communicate. And it’s not her fault at all; it was me. Like, I accept her for who she is, but there also needs to be reciprocation—that they accept you for you as well. And, you know, I think at the core, my heart is good, my intentions are good, and I’m a kind person. I never mean to hurt anybody. And it’s just different styles. Almost like East Coast versus West Coast way of talking—it’s just different.
So for me, I’m much more unwilling now to make myself feel uncomfortable for the sake of others. If some people feel uncomfortable with it, I’m a lot more unapologetic about it.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah.
Christine Chang: Just as to who I am, I know my intentions aren’t bad. We’ve been friends for a long time, and if it’s still a problem, maybe the dynamic—the friendship dynamic—might change. We won’t be as close, or we won’t hang out as much, and that’s okay. But just honoring who I am without being a total jerk, you know? Not saying, “This is me, take it or leave it,” but just, yeah, feeling good about who I am while considering others, but what is me?
Mary Vallarta: What is you, and what is you right now, and being okay with what you’re going to be 10 years from now, 15 years from now, because one thing that will always be true is change. People change, the world changes. So being okay with that is super important and really helpful when it comes to being able to understand others and yourself.
I think that what I’m able to understand from our conversation is that you are the type of person who has really taken what she’s learned from her family, her surroundings, the work that you did with your parents, the person who you are right now, your friends—you’ve been able to take all of that and really learn from it and create the life that you’re living right now. Because it’s not like you threw away everything that you learned from working with your parents. You mentioned that that has actually helped you be able to make money easily. So for me, that’s you taking the gold—you picking and choosing what you want to continue to use as your tools in your life right now. So that’s beautiful, and I just wanted to recognize that in you.
Christine Chang: Thank you so much. I do. I love to learn, and I think it’s a nice way to view things, so you don’t feel regret—I don’t even regret that. Everything you can learn something from it and grow from it, and it puts you where you are today. So I am very grateful for that.
And even stuff with parents—a lot of people have stuff with their parents. And I mean, at the very least, they’re the reason why you’re here. And I’ve never given birth, I’m not a mom, but if you have given birth, you know how much sacrifice it takes and pain and all that to birth you into the world, and raise you so that you’re here because of them, because your mom chose your dad even if it’s a mess.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah. I mean, one of the topics that you mentioned—and I think we kind of touched on it already—is this relationship with your parents, about how important it is to heal or to start that healing process because it does affect your professional life and just your life in general. What would be your advice to people who haven’t quite taken that leap or that step yet? How do they—yeah, how do they go about doing that and instilling some bravery and vulnerability in them?
Christine Chang: Yeah, for me, what helped was one, getting clear on my feelings of what exactly was coming up for me. And I did have some blind spots too, you know? Like, I’ll give you an example. With my dad, I always thought I had a really close, good relationship with him. Daddy’s girl—he understands me. We don’t even have to talk; he knows what I need. He knows what I’m feeling. And I failed to realize when I became an adult.
So my parents are divorced. They own the company together—they’re good business partners, but they divorced when I was 12. And since then, I had always—I’ve said it hundreds of times, “My parents are divorced, my parents are divorced,” and I had never acknowledged that it was actually very painful for me. And I didn’t know this until the first time I did therapy. And the therapist was amazing. The first question she asked me was, “Are your parents together or divorced?” I said, “Divorced,” and then she didn’t say anything. She just sat back and gave me space to continue talking, and that’s when the tears came.
And for me—and a lot of these moments came up in therapy where I said, “I didn’t know that bothered me.” I was so disconnected from how I felt, used to just stuffing things down or just rationalizing like, “I did not know that bothered me.” So at some point, I realized I was really mad and sad with the whole divorce and what my dad did because he did some things that were out of integrity, and that’s why my parents got divorced. But he was always like a good guy, and I realized I had to acknowledge that.
So when I had that clarity, I knew what I wanted to say to him. And for him, I wrote him a letter—I wrote him an email because sometimes my thoughts come out more clearly in writing. I put it in letter form. And also, he’s ESL, so I thought it might be better this way. And with the clarity, it just came out, and I said, “Hey Dad, I love you a lot, and this doesn’t change how I feel about you, but I just want you to know,” and I brought up the divorce. I said, “It’s not that—it’s not just that you didn’t think about Mom, but you also didn’t think about me and Crystal.” (Crystal is my sister.) I said, “You didn’t think about your family, and it was really hurtful, and you never said sorry.” And I said, “You know what, I said, this doesn’t change anything between us. I just want you to know that.”
And at this point, when you go through personal growth, I wasn’t even crying or super upset. I realized it and sent it off and kind of forgot about it. The next time I went to visit in the Bay Area, I walked into their company and walked to my dad’s office, and I saw the impact it had on him. His shoulders were a little down, and he almost couldn’t look at me. He said, “I don’t know why I’m so emotional right now. I’m so sorry.” And that was a huge moment for me because it made me realize how important it is for me to tell people how I feel and the impact they have on me.
Mary Vallarta: Yes! Oh my god.
Christine Chang: So you’re never in control of how the other person is going to take it. I actually didn’t expect him to do anything. He’s an older Chinese man. I thought he might not respond at all. But he saw the impact, and he hugged me for a little longer than usual. And from there, it helped me with all relationships. It made everything feel so much lighter after that. And it might seem like something’s not a big deal, like, “Oh, it’s in the past; it’s okay. I get it. I understand now why he did it.” Sometimes we do things to justify things, but we fail to acknowledge our pain and how it impacted us.
So that, yeah, that was huge. And now having conversations, like vulnerable conversations with him, is really easy.
Mary Vallarta: Wow. That was such a big step because, I mean, if you can’t be honest with the people who love you the most in the world, then who can you be honest with?
Christine Chang: Right.
Mary Vallarta: Right. And after that one, everything else is a cakewalk.
Christine Chang: Yeah.
Mary Vallarta: Oh my god.
Christine Chang: So, yeah, that was huge for me. And there are still things that come up. You know, it’s not like all of a sudden you do it and everything’s like, “Oh, now I’m enlightened.” Things come up with my dad recently with boundaries and work stuff. My mom retired about a year and a half ago, and he’s wanted me to help him again. He likes to work with family. He doesn’t really trust people outside of family—like pretty typical Asian culture. And yeah, there have been multiple boundaries talks, with me bursting into tears and being frustrated. But it’s definitely getting easier for me. I’m not afraid to show my emotions, like, “I’m not happy right now, and you’re not being considerate of others.” I can show him all of that.
It’s always a mixed bag of feelings, right? Because our parents are getting older. I always think, “What if they die? How am I going to feel about how I showed up with them?” That’s always been a good gauge for me in thinking about how I want to show up with people—if they die, how will I feel about it? But it’s always a work in progress, you know?
Mary Vallarta: What is life—damn. [Laughs]
Christine Chang: [Laughs]
Mary Vallarta: Well, I really appreciate this conversation with you, Christine. And to start wrapping things up, even though I wish we could keep talking, what advice would you give to people in the AAPI community who do want to explore something that’s outside the realms of their family or cultural expectations?
Christine Chang: Yeah, just be prepared that some people might be disappointed, they might not understand you, and they might never understand you. And I think being okay with that is very helpful. I think—I mean, this is kind of stereotypical, but Asians—I think we’re pretty practical with money. But in general, you know, if you’re working a full-time job—there are some videos out there that say, “Just quit your job and pursue your dreams.” You know, be smart about it.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah, that’s not for everybody, guys.
Christine Chang: [Laughs] Have a plan. And you’re going to be working a lot, probably more than if you had a nine-to-five job, but the difference is it’s going to be for you. You’re going to have to take on a lot more responsibility. Everything’s up to you. If anything goes wrong, it’s on you. You set the tone for your employees. There’s a different kind of stress that comes with entrepreneurship. Do you want that responsibility? I definitely encourage it, especially if you’re not happy in your job. A lot of us are raised to be more practical, like, “Work is work, and it doesn’t matter if you enjoy it or not.” So either you flip the way that you see your job, or if it’s really screaming at you that it’s just not what you want to do—the self-awareness is huge. Like, where are your skills, and what are you good at?
Because that’s something to consider too. It’s not just about going after your dreams—it’s really competitive out there. So do you have that edge? Like with photography, there’s a ton of photographers out there. But do you love it enough, and do you have that drive where you’re willing to work harder than others? And when you—it’s lucky when you love it because it doesn’t feel as hard, you know, it doesn’t feel—there are going to be moments where you don’t love it all the time, and that’s part of it. Things are always sparking.
Mary Vallarta: Yeah, I mean, when we first logged in, right, you were telling me that you’re working on banking stuff. Like, who—a common person, especially entrepreneurs and creatives, like we don’t want to deal with that type of stuff. But you have to if you’re going after your entrepreneurial dreams, right? It’s necessary. So just being realistic about all the other things that you might have to do that’s not super exciting. But that’s the truth with jobs as well, right? There are aspects about a job that you’re not really keen on either.
Christine Chang: Absolutely. With everything, right? There’s the bright side, and there’s the flip side of it. Same thing with relationships—your favorite thing about your partner is also going to be the thing that annoys you a lot about them or her.
Mary Vallarta: That is so true. So I think what you’ve shared is helpful in terms of just, these are the things that you should be aware of if you do end up wanting to pursue your creative, artistic, entrepreneurial dreams, or even just curiosities. And I like the openness that you gave to where you can do the whole quit your job thing right away, or you can also do another path, which is maybe start as a hobby and slowly move away from your job. That’s a possibility as well.
Christine Chang: Yeah, I actually think that’s a very smart approach—start as a hobby, and as you do it more and more, see how you feel. And again, a lot of these things you won’t know until you start doing them, right?
Mary Vallarta: Right.
Christine Chang: Adjust, do it, adjust. But I definitely think it’s worth going after. Just, you know, they interview people on their deathbed, and their number one regret is not living a life true to themselves and doing more of what they actually wanted to do.
Mary Vallarta: Yes, let’s learn from our elders and listen to that piece of advice. So Christine, what’s next for you? Are there any upcoming projects or things that are exciting you right now that you’re working on?
Christine Chang: Yeah, well right now I’m kind of in pause mode, where I’m a big doer, but sometimes I keep myself too busy that I don’t stop to think and be with myself. So I’m kind of more—I’m doing my current work, the photography, helping my dad a bit with marketing and branding. My family’s really important to me, so I’m clear on how I want to help him. My book sales are going. I keep my podcast for self-expression. And something I want to do in the near future—I love writing, so I do want to write some screenplays and do some films, but right now it feels forced. I started writing some scripts, but the feeling is very important to me that it comes through the work. So right now I’m doing a lot of self-care. I’m going to my dance classes, doing yoga, focusing more on connecting to myself to keep that connection because I think it starts from there. If I feel disconnected, things just don’t feel right. And I really try to go after what feels right instead of getting things right.
Mary Vallarta: I like that—when you feel good, it’ll all fall into place.
Christine Chang: Exactly. It doesn’t matter what things look like—if I’m happy, I feel good, it’s good because you could have the result and not feel good, and then what’s the point?
Mary Vallarta: Yeah, then you can’t even savor what you’ve worked for when you’re not feeling good.
Christine Chang: Right, at that point, it’s like, what’s the point?
Mary Vallarta: Yes. Well, that’s great. I’m happy for you that you’re in that place and you’re able to enjoy that experience, that part of your life.
Christine Chang: Thank you.
Mary Vallarta: Well, thank you so much, Christine, for your time, energy, and all of the advice that you gave us. Is there anything else that you want to leave us with that you might not have had the chance to?
Christine Chang: No, I think we covered a lot! Are you going to leave websites or Instagram handles on the bottom?
Mary Vallarta: Yes, why don’t you share your Instagram handle and the best way for people to learn more about you?
Christine Chang: Sure! My handle is @cchangandco, C-C-H-A-N-G-A-N-D-C-O. I think that’s a good starting place—you can send me a DM there, and there are links to all my stuff.
Mary Vallarta: Amazing. And as a reminder, Christine has a book that’s available on Amazon, and she also has a podcast. Visit her Instagram handle—I’ll make sure to provide all of the links to her resources in the show notes as well.
All right, well thank you, everybody, for listening. Thank you, Christine. We’ll see you next time.
Christine Chang: Thank you, Mary.
Outro Music Plays
Tradition Breakers is produced by Tasty Directives, and the theme music is produced by DJ Professor Moses.